Holy Smokes.....Iron levels with GC

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Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Uhh, it's "accurate", even if you have a correction factor.


Do you honestly believe you know as much about the subject as Doug Hillary, Tom NJ, Roy Howell, Molakule, and Terry Dyson? I know you love arguing with these guys, but you don't. Although we can always use a few more free dictionary cut and past jobs.
smirk2.gif


Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
No need to worry if it's "gotten through to me", that's really not your department.


Trust me, I'm not "worried" in the least.
 
Funny, I don't see the term "accuracy" mentioned on any of the images you posted, but don't let that bother you, it seems you are on to something!!! lol.

I don't think you understand the concept anyway. Even when I give the example of a sequence of UOAs coming back: IRON 5-5-5-5 every time, run on the same oil. What's more accurate than zero parts per million, I don't know....all you do is refer to the biggest group of overthinkers in the world, then post a bunch of unrelated images and spurious arguments.

The direct approach would be to post why YOU don't think UOAs are accurate...like I did, except my example shows them as consistent and accurate. I guess someone with status could argue on your behalf, and their tortured logic conclude that the same ppm, of the same wear metal, in the same engine, with the same oil, year after year, is "inaccurate" or "inconsistent".

I would like to hear that argument, you're just not making it so far.
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Uhh, it's "accurate", even if you have a correction factor.

In math/science, the term you are looking for is precise. Accuracy's definition is that the results are close to correct while precise means the results are close to each other but not necessarily close to correct. The info Ben posted shows the degree of accuracy, not precision.
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I don't think you understand the concept anyway.


I addressed accuracy, you did not.

ac·cu·ra·cy

1 : freedom from mistake or error : correctness

2 a : conformity to truth or to a standard or model : exactness b : degree of conformity of a measure to a standard or a true value — compare precision 2a

Some light reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

Quote:
Even when I give the example of a sequence of UOAs coming back: IRON 5-5-5-5 every time, run on the same oil.


Why do you assume that all of those 5s mean the same thing? I just showed you the range of particle sizes associated with different types of wear, and I showed you the "accuracy" of the UOA diminishes drastically when larger particles are present. 5 ppm does not necessarily equal 5 ppm in the UOA, one 5 indicated on the UOA may actually have more total wear metals (of a given element) suspended in the oil.

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all you do is refer to the biggest group of overthinkers in the world


I refer to a knowledgeable group, you refer to flawed logic.

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then post a bunch of unrelated images and spurious arguments.


They are very much related...

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The direct approach would be to post why YOU don't think UOAs are accurate...


They can be accurate, just as they can be inaccurate. That's why emission spectroscopy isn't a viable tool for comparing wear characteristics of oil, they can mislead.

If you really want to confirm that an oil that typically shows higher wear metals in the UOA is caused by actual wear you need to move beyond the standard UOA into rotrode filter spectroscopy or ferrography.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Uhh, it's "accurate", even if you have a correction factor.

In math/science, the term you are looking for is precise. Accuracy's definition is that the results are close to correct while precise means the results are close to each other but not necessarily close to correct. The info Ben posted shows the degree of accuracy, not precision.


thumbsup2.gif
 
Yeah, I understand the concept just fine. IF you want to frame in in terms of accuracy vs precision, yes the precision model fits better:
100px-High_precision_Low_accuracy.svg.png


with the embedded notation:

With regard to accuracy we can distinguish:
* the difference between the mean of the measurements and the reference value, the bias. Establishing and correcting for bias is necessary for calibration. [like wear particle size/vaporization rate?!]

So, I may have some reservations on agreeing there.

ANYWAY, the debate afaik is accuracy verses inaccuracy, you want to move the goalpost to make it a question of accuracy vs precision.

My definition of accurate is if I could predict the next set of wear numbers ~accurately~ if I have the previous set in hand. This seems sufficient for the sake of this argument. No need to make your overly complex arguments based more or less on rhetoric.


I also would like to invoke the basic principle of a more simple and direct analysis tends to yield the best results. Therefore, the application of common sense can make use of UOAs in the majority of cases to make general predictions about wear based on visc and service interval, just like Doug said. If you want to get him on this thread, fine, but it does not negate the entire UOA industry at large, lol.

I'm pretty sure that's where your argument leads, but you can clarify that, if you please.


While we wait....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Science and the scientific method

In science, Occam’s razor is used as a heuristic (rule of thumb) to guide scientists in the development of theoretical models rather than as an arbiter between published models.[5][6] In physics, parsimony was an important heuristic in the formulation of special relativity by Albert Einstein[15][16], the development and application of the principle of least action by Pierre Louis Maupertuis and Leonhard Euler,[17] and the development of quantum mechanics by Ludwig Boltzmann, Max Planck, Werner Heisenberg and Louis de Broglie.[6][18] In chemistry, Occam’s razor is often an important heuristic when developing a model of a reaction mechanism.[19][20] However, while it is useful as a heuristic in developing models of reaction mechanisms, it has been shown to fail as a criterion for selecting among published models.[6] In this context, Einstein himself expressed a certain caution when he formulated Einstein's Constraint: 'Everything should be kept as simple as possible, but no simpler.' Elsewhere, Einstein harks back to the theological roots of the Razor, with his famous put-down: 'The Good Lord may be subtle, but he is not malicious.'

In the scientific method, parsimony is an epistemological, metaphysical or heuristic preference, not an irrefutable principle of logic, and certainly not a scientific result.[7][8][9][10] As a logical principle, Occam's razor would demand that scientists accept the simplest possible theoretical explanation for existing data. However, science has shown repeatedly that future data often supports more complex theories than existing data. Science tends to prefer the simplest explanation that is consistent with the data available at a given time, but history shows that these simplest explanations often yield to complexities as new data become available.[5][8] Science is open to the possibility that future experiments might support more complex theories than demanded by current data and is more interested in designing experiments to discriminate between competing theories than favoring one theory over another based merely on philosophical principles.[7][8][9][10]

One should note the related concept of overfitting, where excessively complex models are affected by statistical noise, whereas simpler models may capture the underlying structure better and may thus have better predictive performance. It is, however, often difficult to deduce which part of the data is noise (cf. model selection, test set, minimum description length, Bayesian inference, etc.)


The origins of what has come to be known as Occam's razor are traceable to the works of earlier philosophers such as Maimonides (1138–1204), John Duns Scotus (1265–1308), Thomas Aquinas (c. 1225–1274) and even Aristotle (384–322 BC) (Charlesworth 1956). The term "Ockham's razor" first appeared in 1852 in the works of Sir William Hamilton, 9th Baronet (1788–1856), centuries after Ockham's death. Ockham did not invent this "razor," so its association with him may be due to the frequency and effectiveness with which he used it (Ariew 1976). Though Ockham stated the principle in various ways, the most popular version was written not by him, but by John Ponce from Cork Ireland in 1639 (Meyer 1957).

The version of the Razor most often found in Ockham's work is Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate, “For nothing ought to be posited without a reason given, unless it is self-evident (literally, known through itself) or known by experience or proved by the authority of Sacred Scripture.”[13] For Ockham, the only truly necessary entity is God; everything else, the whole of creation, is radically contingent through and through. In short, Ockham does not accept the Principle of Sufficient Reason.[13]

William Seach (c. 1285–1349) is remembered as an influential nominalist but his popular fame as a great logician rests chiefly on the maxim attributed to him and known as Ockam's razor: Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem or "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily." The term razor refers to the act of shaving away unnecessary assumptions to get to the simplest explanation. No doubt this maxim represents correctly the general tendency of his philosophy, but it has not so far been found in any of his writings. His nearest pronouncement seems to be Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate [Plurality must never be posited without necessity], which occurs in his theological work on the Sentences of Peter Lombard (Quaestiones et decisiones in quattuor libros Sententiarum Petri Lombardi (ed. Lugd., 1495), i, dist. 27, qu. 2, K). In his Summa Totius Logicae, i. 12, Ockham cites the principle of economy, Frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora [It is futile to do with more things that which can be done with fewer].
—Thorburn, 1918, pp. 352-3; Kneale and Kneale, 1962, p. 243.[12]
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
ANYWAY, the debate afaik is accuracy verses inaccuracy, you want to move the goalpost to make it a question of accuracy vs precision.


I have moved no goal posts, you keep harping on "the concept" of accuracy when in fact there may be little to none when using the UOA as a comparative tool to evaluate the wear control of various oils.

Quote:
My definition of accurate is if I could predict the next set of wear numbers ~accurately~ if I have the previous set in hand. This seems sufficient for the sake of this argument.


How can there be accuracy when the numbers themselves may in fact be inaccurate?

Size_Wear.jpg


Size_ppm.jpg


pre·ci·sion (pr-szhn)
n.
1. The state or quality of being precise; exactness.

2.
a. The ability of a measurement to be consistently reproduced.
b. The number of significant digits to which a value has been reliably measured.

Quote:
Therefore, the application of common sense can make use of UOAs in the majority of cases to make general predictions about wear based on visc and service interval, just like Doug said.


I haven't argued otherwise. UOAs are useful tools, just not for determining which oil provides the best wear control. Useful for spotting outliers indicating a problem? Useful for determining OCIs? Sure...

Recall, this discussion started with this...
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Like I said, when an engine throws out the same wear number down to single ppm for 4 or 5 consecutive UOAs, yeah, I tend to think they are "accurate".


...or maybe they are just equally blind.


Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Whatever that is.
smirk2.gif



I think I have shown exactly what I meant with that statement, and shown just how UOAs can in fact be "blind".

The sticking point for me from the very beginning was your usage of "accurate".
 
If you see a set of repeatable measurements on a single oil that then increases in a wear metal, do you conclude that the oil has changed? I would think that any reasonable person could grant that it is possible that something could have happened to the engine at the time when the trend changed.

In this case, where the oil did change, it does not preclude that something happened to the engine that was independent of the oil brand. If there is a reasonable alternative explanation, then clearly the data do not "prove" any single conclusion.
 
I see we've got our expected Wikipedia and dictionary quotes in this thread.

Would be really nice for somebody to state a definition using their own words, not Merriam-Webster for a change.

As far as this topic goes: There hasn't been a single expert on it posting in this thread.

Why?

Because many times when they post something of merit, Audi Junkie takes them to task over it. Their presentation of the facts often doesn't jive with his view of things. Even if what he's arguing isn't really that far removed from what he's taking issue with.

In my (relative to some) short stay on this board, I have seen many a civil discussion of this topic where experts have in fact participated, ruined by the attitude seen in this thread and many others. Massive Wikipedia quotes that serve no value save taking up space and implying knowledge. Dictionary quotes used for much the same purpose. Add condescension and snide remarks to that list and it is not hard to imagine why these threads go downhill fast.

These are not the fundamentals of a civil discussion or debate; situations where one brings their own knowledge and experience to the table to discuss and will readily listen to others and contemplates their contributions before responding.

Entering into a "discussion" (and I use that term rather loosely) with somebody who regards their own view as absolute FACT, rather than simply strong personal opinion is never going to result in an acceptable conclusion.

And for those who care for some examples, here are a couple:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1928676

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1709778
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I see we've got our expected Wikipedia and dictionary quotes in this thread.

Would be really nice for somebody to state a definition using their own words, not Merriam-Webster for a change.

As far as this topic goes: There hasn't been a single expert on it posting in this thread.

Why?

Because many times when they post something of merit, Audi Junkie takes them to task over it. Their presentation of the facts often doesn't jive with his view of things. Even if what he's arguing isn't really that far removed from what he's taking issue with.

In my (relative to some) short stay on this board, I have seen many a civil discussion of this topic where experts have in fact participated, ruined by the attitude seen in this thread and many others. Massive Wikipedia quotes that serve no value save taking up space and implying knowledge. Dictionary quotes used for much the same purpose. Add condescension and snide remarks to that list and it is not hard to imagine why these threads go downhill fast.

These are not the fundamentals of a civil discussion or debate; situations where one brings their own knowledge and experience to the table to discuss and will readily listen to others and contemplates their contributions before responding.

Entering into a "discussion" (and I use that term rather loosely) with somebody who regards their own view as absolute FACT, rather than simply strong personal opinion is never going to result in an acceptable conclusion.

And for those who care for some examples, here are a couple:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1928676

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1709778


You really, really, nailed it. There's more thread like those two. Like the one concerning the UOA of a Z4M. Or the epic thread started by user Tobin.
 
Having a discussion with people intent on learning is positive experience.

Having an argument with people intent on "winning" is a futile experience.

Tom NJ
 
To say all this in another way, you will find people who use Mobil 1 for the most part say uoa do not show engine wear, on the other hand people who use Formula Shell, PP or even Motorcraft never seem to have any issues with wear re. uoa. For the life of me can never figure that out. Must be something that just goes with the nature of the beast.
 
People just place WAY too much faith in the analysis results. It's just one component of overall engine operation.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
People just place WAY too much faith in the analysis results. It's just one component of overall engine operation.


That is because people have no concept of what spectroscopy even is. I have 2 degrees in chemistry and have taken quite a few analytical and instrumental chemistry classes and I don't even try to guess on most of these UOA's. I'm not sure what type of spectroscopy blackstone uses or what machine they use or what method they use to calculate concentration etc.
 
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