hm oil additives ??

[Garak]

Okay, that makes sense. From a formulating perspective with respect to HM oils, are the SN/GF-5 limits even an issue? What I'm getting at, really, is whether or not the non-ILSAC HM oils we see out there would meet SN/GF-5 seal compatibility standards, ignoring any phosphorous or HTHS issues.

As for marketing, well, it is what it is. Sometimes, Shell needs to take a look at what Wakefield does up here. Castrol has a very, very significant market share up here without having a dozen different tiers of SN/GF-5 stuff. They just make sure they are everywhere and are frequently on sale.

I've always stated here that anyone who pays regular price for GTX is a sucker, since it's always on a big sale somewhere. The competition is a bit more hit and miss in that regard.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
All formulated oils contain some measure of seal conditioners and cleaners. The HM oils have a small fraction more of each.


Quote:
Various organic Phosphates, Nitriles, aromatic hydrocarbons, and esters have been developed to affect:

1. what component in an engine or transmission, or hydraulic systems?

2. And how does it affect this component?




Quote:
These are all seal conditioners, which work by one or more of these methods:

1. Cleaning the seal,
2. swelling the seal slightly by replacing elastomer molecules.

In 1980, Lubrizol patented a seal swell additve using "beta-thiopropionitrile" chemical which replaces the nitrile atoms lost to wear, oxidation, and sludge encroachment.

In addition, the ester di(2-ethylhexyl)-adipate (a di-ester), or similar ester equivalents, are often added to PAO and Group III base fluids, at about 5%, to improve seal swell.



http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...well#Post530224


This doesn't tell me a thing about whether or not Maxlife uses seal conditioners, swellers or both.


Sure it does:

Quote:
These are all seal conditioners, which work by one or more of these methods:

1. Cleaning the seal,
2. swelling the seal slightly by replacing elastomer molecules.


By replacing elastomer molecules in the seal material, the seal's volume is increased which swells it.


Maybe you could restate your question as I have answered your questions in much detail.

Again badtlc, you are not going to get any IP info if that is your goal, a common theme in most of your posts.

Maybe your understanding of elastomers is lacking so I'll give you some background info to aid in understanding the issue. (This info has already been presented years ago in BITOG, but I'll repeat a summary here).

Elastomers, of which seals (and some gaskets) are constructed, are compounds made of of synthetic rubbers and plasticizer compounds.

The plasticizer does a number of things. The plasticizer helps in moulding, extruding, and shaping (processing/curing) of the elastomer.

After processing, the plasticizer also functions to make the seal more flexible (pliable), so it can conform to a shaft or other part to seal it.

After being subjected to chemicals and heat, a seal tends to lose its plasticizer.

The seal conditioner chemistry "diffuses" into the seal to replace plasticizers molecules that have been lost, swelling the seal by increasing the seals volume. [Diffusion is the net movement of molecules or atoms from a region of high concentration to a region of low concentration. This is also referred to as the movement of a substance down a concentration gradient].

The seal conditioning chemistry both swells the seal and cleans it.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Okay, that makes sense. From a formulating perspective with respect to HM oils, are the SN/GF-5 limits even an issue? What I'm getting at, really, is whether or not the non-ILSAC HM oils we see out there would meet SN/GF-5 seal compatibility standards, ignoring any phosphorous or HTHS issues.



The non-ILSAC HM oils we see out there have to meet seal specifications so as not to "over swell or over condition."

 

[MolaKule]

Just to add a word:

After being subjected to chemicals and heat, a seal tends to lose its plasticizer, tends to harden, and becomes less "conformable" or pliable.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: ronp
Are there effective and non harmful HM oil additives similar to maxlife ATF additive that can be used with any oil of choice?


Thanks MolaKule!
To the question, seems like you could combine a little LiquiMoly Oil Saver (seal conditioners) with the Fram High Mileage Oil Filter goop (a tech term) which seems to have everything except seal conditioners are missing from it. http://www.fram.com/oil-filters/fram-high-mileage-oil-filter.aspx#2

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
After being subjected to chemicals and heat, a seal tends to lose its plasticizer, tends to harden, and becomes less "conformable" or pliable.


Maybe LM Motor Saver is a good idea for long OCIs when conditioner gets weak from heat/age and the oil needs a boost?

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Originally Posted By: ronp
Are there effective and non harmful HM oil additives similar to maxlife ATF additive that can be used with any oil of choice?


Thanks MolaKule!
To the question, seems like you could combine a little LiquiMoly Oil Saver (seal conditioners) with the Fram High Mileage Oil Filter goop (a tech term) which seems to have everything except seal conditioners are missing from it. http://www.fram.com/oil-filters/fram-high-mileage-oil-filter.aspx#2


I wouldn't combine anything like that unless I had a smoker engine that was going to get a rebuild.

If it is a smoker and loosey-goosey, I would use a high viscosity HM oil.

That Fram HM oil filter is a marketing gimmick.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
That Fram HM oil filter is a marketing gimmick.


You're down on the Fram chemicals. Motorking had a post on it explaining it. I re-read it just now and noticed he is claiming it has seal conditioners, but the Fram website doesn't quite mention that. Anyway, Molakule, want to say it has some merit?

Originally Posted By: Motorking

Most here know I work at FRAM. Let me explain what the HM filter and is not. It's delivery system is a direct offshoot of a filtering system we developed for class 8 trucking fleets when they started experiencing shortened drain intervals due to soot agglomeration in the engine oil due to the addition of EGR systems to large diesels. We decided to sell it in the Pass car market when many oil companies started pushing HM oils. What the additives does is keep acid balance (PH) in check on engines that have some piston ring blow by. It also contains seal conditioning additives as well. Otherwise it is identical to the standard Extra Guard filter. If you have a clean well maintained engine that is not using oil, you should use the EG or XG filter. If you have an oil burner/leaker, there is a benefit. These filter will go 5K OCI. OK, let the trash talking begin and Happy New Year to all the BITOGers out there/

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
The non-ILSAC HM oils we see out there have to meet seal specifications so as not to "over swell or over condition."

Sounds good. The concern I had (academically speaking, since the F-150 doesn't leak) was that the ILSAC rating might weaken the seal conditioners. I'm glad that's not the case.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
That Fram HM oil filter is a marketing gimmick.


You're down on the Fram chemicals. Motorking had a post on it explaining it. I re-read it just now and noticed he is claiming it has seal conditioners, but the Fram website doesn't quite mention that. Anyway, Molakule, want to say it has some merit?

Originally Posted By: Motorking

Most here know I work at FRAM. Let me explain what the HM filter and is not. It's delivery system is a direct offshoot of a filtering system we developed for class 8 trucking fleets when they started experiencing shortened drain intervals due to soot agglomeration in the engine oil due to the addition of EGR systems to large diesels. We decided to sell it in the Pass car market when many oil companies started pushing HM oils. What the additives does is keep acid balance (PH) in check on engines that have some piston ring blow by. It also contains seal conditioning additives as well. Otherwise it is identical to the standard Extra Guard filter. If you have a clean well maintained engine that is not using oil, you should use the EG or XG filter. If you have an oil burner/leaker, there is a benefit. These filter will go 5K OCI. OK, let the trash talking begin and Happy New Year to all the BITOGers out there/


See Underlining above.

And I also stated in another thread that it is up to Fram marketing to show any technical or economic advantage that this "gimmick" filter has over a simple filter change and top off.

Don't assume I am "down" on any product just because I disagree with preconceived notions or marketing hype.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
And I also stated in another thread that it is up to Fram marketing to show any technical or economic advantage that this "gimmick" filter has over a simple filter change and top off.

Don't assume I am "down" on any product just because I disagree with preconceived notions or marketing hype.


I like the timed release nature of the High Mileage oil filter goopy goo-pack. I think most people might agree that if you added oil, you would get a similar additive replenishment, depending on how much make-up oil one has to add. Most people don't do a "simple filter change and top off" mid-OCI, so I don't know why you would say that.
From now on when you think a product is too gimmicky-hyped, I won't say you're down on it, I'll say you're DWPOMH, an ez to understand acronym for "disagree with preconc.....", and everybody will get it.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Most people don't do a "simple filter change and top off" mid-OCI, so I don't know why you would say that.


I would say that because the thread I was referring to had as its main topic HD oils, where many trucking companies and owner/operators use this practice.

And you may be surprised how many DIYers do this as well.

And the main point was this: What is the technical and economic advantage of using this expensive "gimmic" filter over a simple filter change and a 3/4 Qt. top-off?

Mr. Fram has yet to answer that.

 

[901Memphis]

I believe Jay already mentioned something about how the Fram high mileage was a marketing idea and the TG/Ultra are better filters for your engine.

 

[Garak]

Mola, with respect to Quaker State Defy, I had settled down a little bit until I started to look at the NAPA Canada catalog last night. They have a special on those shop boxes of oil. The price didn't look too bad, I thought, but I couldn't find any conventional (or synthetic, either). All I could find were the blends, and I shook my head when I saw what they really were. Included in the offerings were Quaker State Enhanced Durability synthetic blend, Quaker State Defy synthetic blend, and Quaker State dexos1 synthetic blend. I'm sure they can roll out a couple more synthetic blend offerings.

 

[MolaKule]

I got a new one for you:

QUEST

Quaker State Universal Euro Synthetic Turbo

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I got a new one for you:

QUEST

Quaker State Universal Euro Synthetic Turbo

Quaker State Universal Euro Synthetic Turbo Truck Pure Plus, which the hip kids on BITOG just call QSUESTTPP..... Is it a wonder consumers aren't more confused? I was buying oil the other day, saw a guy next to me trying to decide what oil to buy, and he looked like his brain was being scrambled as he surveyed the myriad varieties of engine oil.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: ronp
Are there effective and non harmful HM oil additives similar to maxlife ATF additive that can be used with any oil of choice?


To the original question, LiquiMoly Motor Saver and Fram's High Mileage Oil Filter claims to have HM additives in a bottle thats universal. Both those companies are pretty solid, despite some accusations on here of gimmickry. I like the Fram approach, since they have used it in heavy duty trucks in a similar oil filter, the Wearguard TRT, see the youtube video:


Certainly if you top off your oil a lot, you should be fine. If you don't, then I guess you can change your oil filter out mid-oil-change (still don't know who does that, Molakule...) and add some oil.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
QUEST

As long as it's SN/GF-5, and a blend, we're good to go, right?

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Garak
As long as it's SN/GF-5, and a blend, we're good to go, right?


R i g g g h h t t.

Just trust me on that one.

 

[MolaKule]

Quaker State Universal Euro Synthetic Turbo Blended

 

[Garak]

Now, let me call Napa and tell them I want one of each box, and watch them deliver me three identical boxes of oil.

That's why this whole Defy and QSED apparently coexisting thing confuses me, since I know the bar code for the 5 L jug of Defy is the same as that for the jug of QSED, at least what the QSED had printed under the UPC just prior to the Defy rollout. They're out to drive me nuts, I tells you!