Higher End Espresso Machine

[zmelli]

I am looking at a couple different machines The Profitec Pro 400 and the Bezzera BZ13. Both are north of $1500 so I want a machine that is serviceable and will last 20years. Does anybody have any insider knowledge about this Industry? Or should I say what company would you buy from. I would never consider an Italian car, so it feels funny shopping for an Italian Espresso Machines! Bezzera is NSF certified, how much does that matter? Thanks.

https://www.profitec-espresso.com/en/products/pro-400

Bezzera BZ13 DE Espresso Machine - Special Edition

The Bezzera BZ13 DE is a NSF-certified PID heat-exchanger espresso machine with incredibly fast heat-up times and phenomenal temperature stability.

www.wholelattelove.com

 

[ripcord]

Very nice, though I have no experience with either of those two machines. I've been happy enough with a LaSpaziel S1 Vivaldi which is the previous version of this one linked below. Mine is unplugged for the moment, as the pump is kaput. It made it for about 15 years, so can't complain about that. Espresso machines are different than most consumer kitchen products as they are much more complex and will all eventually require service and repair.

La Spaziale S1 Vivaldi II in Black

The La Spaziale Vivaldi II single group dual boiler espresso machine is a plumbed-in-place machine and has a patented coffee delivery system.

www.wholelattelove.com

 

[spackard]

We bought a Pasquini Livia 90. About 20 years in it needed a new pump, valve, relay, and several miscellaneous parts, and labor. About $500.
The place is local enough to drive to, in Los Angeles. Click here
They’ve been in business since 1957. But I notice they don’t sell any machines under their own name.

 

[zmelli]

After going on a few coffee forums, it seems like they all break down. I may just lower my price point, It would be devastating to spend money on a future headache!

 

[zmelli]

We bought a Pasquini Livia 90. About 20 years in it needed a new pump, valve, relay, and several miscellaneous parts, and labor. About $500.
The place is local enough to drive to, in Los Angeles. Click here
They’ve been in business since 1957. But I notice they don’t sell any machines under their own name.

Thanks for the link

 

[ripcord]

Do you already have an espresso machine that you're familiar with?

 

[Snagglefoot]

My Saeco Odea Giro Plus made it 10 years. I think it earned its keep. There are plenty of technicians that will look at it but too expensive to consider. This one is fully automatic. The beans go in the hopper and miniature hockey pucks are expelled into a waste bin. I might try replace the condensers some day. For now it’s a prop in my kitchen.

 

[ripcord]

Something like a Rancilio Rocky can make excellent espresso if you're willing to put in a little effort. They are relatively easy to fix yourself if you are a little bit handy.

Do you already have a good grinder? I think most knowledgeable coffee nerds would agree that they would rather have a $1000 grinder and a $500 espresso machine than the other way around, though those numbers might need to be revised upward in today's inflationary market.

 

[zmelli]

Do you already have an espresso machine that you're familiar with?

I just bought a cheaper Breville back in 2006 that did not ever work very well.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Saeco, the Italian coffee maker was purchased by Philips in 2009 but has always sold certain machines under the Saeco name. Mine was a Saeco brand name I bought in 2012.

 

[Snagglefoot]

I think you’re talking about “ Superautomatic” machines. It’s where you load the beans in, and it makes an espresso and dumps the grounds. Is this what you are thinking about?

Here’s a few Phiiips / Saeco machines.

 

[Yolo]

Jura Giga 10.

 

[ripcord]

My advice would be unless your budget is several thousand dollars, to stay away from super automatic machines. They are the most prone to problems and don't make that great of a drink.

Get a good grinder and a separate espresso machine where you manually fill and tamp the grounds into a portafilter. I'd rather have a Baby Gagia than one of those superautomatics.

With espresso you want to be able to control as many of the the variables as possible.

 

[Snagglefoot]

It depends what floats your boat. If you want to spend time grinding beans and tamping coffee like a barista then have at it. Superautomatics can actually make a great espresso. That’s the whole idea. I mentioned mine lasted 10 years.

 

[Cropduster172]

It depends what floats your boat. If you want to spend time grinding beans and tamping coffee like a barista then have at it. Superautomatics can actually make a great espresso. That’s the whole idea. I mentioned mine lasted 10 years.

Agreed. I like drip coffee and a Baratza Encore grinder with a Moccamaster and some halfway decent beans gets the job done very well. But an espresso or cappuccino every now and then is enjoyable.
I wanted a superautomatic but didn't want to spend a lot. Bought a Gaggia Brera for about $320 all in(refurbished from Whole Latte Love). I added one of those Intensa filters. Took about 8-10 shots to dial it in. It's a great little machine that suits my purposes perfectly.
Thing looked brand new with the blue plastic film still on parts if it.

Refurbished Gaggia Brera Espresso Machine in Silver

Save on a Refurbished Gaggia Silver Brera Espresso Machine. Further proof that good things come in small packages, the Gaggia Brera is a fully equipped super-automatic espresso machine with a compact footprint that will leave you with plenty of counter space. The Italian-made Brera has been...

www.wholelattelove.com

It's $45 cheaper on their eBay store for the silver version.

 

[edhackett]

I am looking at a couple different machines The Profitec Pro 400 and the Bezzera BZ13. Both are north of $1500 so I want a machine that is serviceable and will last 20years.

When I decided to upgrade from my Nespresso machine my research lead me to the BZ13 based on price, size, quick warm up, and company history. I ended up sending it back under the 30 day no questions asked policy and getting a Profitec Pro 600. The issue with the BZ13 is that current company practice is to set the brew pressure of their vibratory pump machines at 12-13 bar in order to match the flow of a rotary pump. This is a mistake. If you are pulling traditional Italian espresso shots, a grind size that gives you a 1:2 ratio shot in about 30 seconds only develops 8-9 bar and all is well. Should you want to pull a ristretto, the finer grind needed to pull a 1:1 shot in 30-40 seconds results in the machine delivering 13 bar of pressure and the result is turpentine in the cup. The OPV valve can be adjusted, but is not designed to be adjustable. Backed off to 9 bar mine would leak at the slightest touch and squealed like a stuck pig. I can't recommend this machine, unfortunately. It's a one trick pony.

The Pro 400 is a heat exchanger and as such, you'll need to develop a flush routine to reach your preferred brew temperature. Don't believe the videos that show this is not the case with a heat exchanger with a PID. They all overheat the water if left idle past a certain point. The exception is the Lelit Mara X. It has temperature probes in both the boiler and in the heat exchanger. You can choose where the PID will control the temperature based on your preferences.

I would consider seriously looking at the Pro 300 dual boiler as an alternative for just a little more than the Pro 400. For a bit less the Mara X should be looked at carefully, as it's probably the going to give the best experience in a heat exchanger. I would suspect in the long run, the Profitec models will prove to be more reliable and easier to work on than the Lelit, but that is not a given. Lelit produces a quality product.

If there's any way you can stretch your budget to the Pro 600, that is one that you won't outgrow in 20 years and will likely need little repair and will be the easiest to work on should repair be needed. The key with any machine you get is to keep it clean and use nothing but a non-scaling water. That will eliminate most of the maintenance issues people run into with any espresso machine regardless of brand or type.

Ed

 

[zmelli]

When I decided to upgrade from my Nespresso machine my research lead me to the BZ13 based on price, size, quick warm up, and company history. I ended up sending it back under the 30 day no questions asked policy and getting a Profitec Pro 600. The issue with the BZ13 is that current company practice is to set the brew pressure of their vibratory pump machines at 12-13 bar in order to match the flow of a rotary pump. This is a mistake. If you are pulling traditional Italian espresso shots, a grind size that gives you a 1:2 ratio shot in about 30 seconds only develops 8-9 bar and all is well. Should you want to pull a ristretto, the finer grind needed to pull a 1:1 shot in 30-40 seconds results in the machine delivering 13 bar of pressure and the result is turpentine in the cup. The OPV valve can be adjusted, but is not designed to be adjustable. Backed off to 9 bar mine would leak at the slightest touch and squealed like a stuck pig. I can't recommend this machine, unfortunately. It's a one trick pony.

The Pro 400 is a heat exchanger and as such, you'll need to develop a flush routine to reach your preferred brew temperature. Don't believe the videos that show this is not the case with a heat exchanger with a PID. They all overheat the water if left idle past a certain point. The exception is the Lelit Mara X. It has temperature probes in both the boiler and in the heat exchanger. You can choose where the PID will control the temperature based on your preferences.

I would consider seriously looking at the Pro 300 dual boiler as an alternative for just a little more than the Pro 400. For a bit less the Mara X should be looked at carefully, as it's probably the going to give the best experience in a heat exchanger. I would suspect in the long run, the Profitec models will prove to be more reliable and easier to work on than the Lelit, but that is not a given. Lelit produces a quality product.

If there's any way you can stretch your budget to the Pro 600, that is one that you won't outgrow in 20 years and will likely need little repair and will be the easiest to work on should repair be needed. The key with any machine you get is to keep it clean and use nothing but a non-scaling water. That will eliminate most of the maintenance issues people run into with any espresso machine regardless of brand or type.

Ed

What a response, this is exactly the type of detailed information that I was looking for. I am glad that I posted an Espresso machine question on bobistheoilguy! Who would have known, thank you very much Ed.