High VI Market: Whither

[Virginia_Oilcan]

To the best of my knowledge, so far we've seen the following retail oils in the 200 (+) Club, as far as viscosity index is concerned. All in 0W 20.

Castrol Edge (SM) (which bowed out of the High-VI market, since the introduction of SN)
Toyota Genuine (SN and prior)
Mazda (SN)
Sustina (SN).

There may be others. Two of the current three are OEM products, and may or may not be directed to the general consumer market as opposed to their own warranty customers. The other being a high-tech, but high-priced and not commonly available item.

So where is this market headed. Will we see any other entrants, in the 200 Club. And will the forthcoming 0W 16 standard, have an effect on this segment. Or another way of asking it- is this market getting bigger, or smaller. At least in North America.

 

[demarpaint]

Good question. Castrol went in the opposite direction with Gold bottle SN Edge, I wonder why? They also claim the SN formula is better. At least that's what they told me when they first rolled out the SN with the changes. Amsoil and RL aren't jumping on the high VI bandwagon either. Food for thought, lots of speculation, no one knows the real reasons why though.

 

[Seventh]

+1 Good question. I personally have no freakin' clue.

I think the assumption of some "oil heads" is that the high vi is the result of using new technology to improve upon traditional GPIII base stocks as much as possible, and that oils with higher quality GPIV/V base stocks don't need it to compete with them. (To put it VERY simply, no expert here, just thinking aloud.)

The way I see it, they're using cheaper and more commonly available ingredients, combined with new technology to produce a better end product and still keep the price fairly reasonable.

Compare TGMO 0w-20 to Motul 8100 Eco-Lite 0w-20.

TGMO has a vi of what, 215 or something?
Motul has a vi of 162

TGMO costs roughly $7 per quart retail
Motul costs roughly $15 per quart

TGMO is GPIII based oil with new and exciting tech
Motul is fully synthetic and claims "ester tech" or some such (the word synthetic actually means something in Europe)

Average Joe doesn't know about vi's and whatnot, but thinks, (based on price) "Wow, that Motul oil must be twice as good!" And perhaps it is?

Will mid-vi oils will go the way of the middle class? Will we be left with oils that are either rich or poor in the vi department? I believe so, but mostly in the realm of newer engines and their thin oil requirements. The high vi market most certainly has to get bigger, and I think 0w-16 oil requirements will crack the whip on that. My $.02

 

[KCJeep]

They've developed these ultra high VI oils so they can have a super light OEM oil, so they can use it for CAFE testing, so they can squeak out a quarter mile per gallon and save millions. Mass market oil producers are more concerned with other issues. JMO.

 

[CATERHAM]

There is also Mitsubishi and Honda/Acura Canada that are using the GF-4 200 VI Idemitsu 0W-20.

There is also the American company Cross Oil and their SynGard 0W-20 (220 VI) and their 0W-30 (228 VI):
http://www.crossoil.com/lib/docs/pds/PDSFullSyntheticPCMOSNSynGard.pdf

And there is the European race oil formulator that is also using the new Asteric type polymer technology with a 215 VI 0W-40 and a 222 VI 10W-60:
http://www.delron.fi/english/dragster.htm

The advantages of the new technology are so compelling that I think it is just a matter of time before the entire premium PCMO
adopts it. At the present time I think there is a potential supply issue. When Ford or GM start specifying it's use then every formulator will have no choice but to reformulate and start offering at least some high VI oils.

 

[dailydriver]

I don't know why, but most of the high end/exorbitantly priced 'boutique oils', have REFUSED to jump on this >200 VI bandwagon, even with their newest, 'latest and greatest' products. (i.e.; Millers Nanodrive, Motul 300V, MPT 30K, and even the 0W-XX Red Line offerings)

Do they somehow feel that the Asteric PMA VIIs are not needed/unnecessary, or that they "take up too much space in the formula needed for other, more important components"?

It most likely cannot be because of their cost, since these companies would seem to have NO qualms about jacking up the price of their top of the line oils to cover the outlay for these premium VIIs.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Seventh


I think the assumption of some "oil heads" is that the high vi is the result of using new technology to improve upon traditional GPIII base stocks as much as possible, and that oils with higher quality GPIV/V base stocks don't need it to compete with them. (To put it VERY simply, no expert here, just thinking aloud.)

The way I see it, they're using cheaper and more commonly available ingredients, combined with new technology to produce a better end product and still keep the price fairly reasonable.

Compare TGMO 0w-20 to Motul 8100 Eco-Lite 0w-20.

TGMO has a vi of what, 215 or something?
Motul has a vi of 162

TGMO costs roughly $7 per quart retail
Motul costs roughly $15 per quart

TGMO is GPIII based oil with new and exciting tech
Motul is fully synthetic and claims "ester tech" or some such (the word synthetic actually means something in Europe)

That's not exactly what's happening.
For example, Nippon Oil's flagship oil, is their Sustina 0W-20 with it's 229 VI. And while it uses the new polymer technology it also based on the development of a very high GP III+ (GTL equivalent) 4cSt base oil with a 140 VI. A PAO 4cSt oil has a VI of only 124. Even the best Group V esters base oils don't have VIs higher than about 145 with light oils and I suspect not even that high in a 4cSt oil.

Motul is not using the new polymer technology yet but their Eco-clean 0W-30 has a pretty high 183 VI and they have just released their new 300V 0W-40 with it's 186 VI.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
I don't know why, but most of the high end/exorbitantly priced 'boutique oils', have REFUSED to jump on this >200 VI bandwagon, even with their newest, 'latest and greatest' products. (i.e.; Millers Nanodrive, Motul 300V, MPT 30K, and even the 0W-XX Red Line offerings)

Do they somehow feel that the Asteric PMA VIIs are not needed/unnecessary, or that they "take up too much space in the formula needed for other, more important components"?

It most likely cannot be because of their cost, since these companies would seem to have NO qualms about jacking up the price of their top of the line oils to cover the outlay for these premium VIIs.

That's pretty much sums up what I've said a few times in theose threads. Amsoil, Red Line and others haven't jumped on board, yet. Will they be forced to if Ford, GM, and Chrysler start calling for them? They'll have no choice. Will the products be as good as their current offerings? Maybe, maybe not.

As far as cost, its quite possible the base stock and add packs they're using to get their finished product, costs a lot more to make than these high VI oils that are becoming popular here. So I doubt cost is much of a factor. JMO

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
I don't know why, but most of the high end/exorbitantly priced 'boutique oils', have REFUSED to jump on this >200 VI bandwagon, even with their newest, 'latest and greatest' products. (i.e.; Millers Nanodrive, Motul 300V, MPT 30K, and even the 0W-XX Red Line offerings)

Do they somehow feel that the Asteric PMA VIIs are not needed/unnecessary, or that they "take up too much space in the formula needed for other, more important components"?

It most likely cannot be because of their cost, since these companies would seem to have NO qualms about jacking up the price of their top of the line oils to cover the outlay for these premium VIIs.

I've pointed this out to you before, this NEW technology has only been around since 2008.
I have no idea what the supply is like of this new polymer type but I'm sure it's just a matter of time before they start using it. As I pointed out, Del-Ron Motor Sport Oils, a European boutique formulator has started using it.

And no the new polymer doesn't "take up more space", in fact one of it's advantages is that less polymer is actually used. Check out the Lubrizol link on the product below:
http://www.lubrizol.com/ViscosityModifiers/Asteric/default.html

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
I don't know why, but most of the high end/exorbitantly priced 'boutique oils', have REFUSED to jump on this >200 VI bandwagon, even with their newest, 'latest and greatest' products. (i.e.; Millers Nanodrive, Motul 300V, MPT 30K, and even the 0W-XX Red Line offerings)

Do they somehow feel that the Asteric PMA VIIs are not needed/unnecessary, or that they "take up too much space in the formula needed for other, more important components"?

It most likely cannot be because of their cost, since these companies would seem to have NO qualms about jacking up the price of their top of the line oils to cover the outlay for these premium VIIs.

I've pointed this out to you before, this NEW technology has only been around since 2008.
I have no idea what the supply is like of this new polymer type but I'm sure it's just a matter of time before they start using it. As I pointed out, Del-Ron Motor Sport Oils, a European boutique formulator has started using it.

And no the new polymer doesn't "take up more space", in fact one of it's advantages is that less polymer is actually used. Check out the Lubrizol link on the product below:
http://www.lubrizol.com/ViscosityModifiers/Asteric/default.html


I was NOT saying the bolded above myself as a statement, ONLY speculating as to what reasons (and what they might say if asked) these formulators had to not use the Asteric PMA VIIs.

I would have thought that IF these high end companies REALLY wanted to get a hold of even the VERY limited volume of these new VIIs, they would have paid the toll, and the just passed the cost on to us, the consumer, but I could be VERY wrong on this guess.

 

[Cup of Joe]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
I don't know why, but most of the high end/exorbitantly priced 'boutique oils', have REFUSED to jump on this >200 VI bandwagon, even with their newest, 'latest and greatest' products. (i.e.; Millers Nanodrive, Motul 300V, MPT 30K, and even the 0W-XX Red Line offerings)

Do they somehow feel that the Asteric PMA VIIs are not needed/unnecessary, or that they "take up too much space in the formula needed for other, more important components"?

It most likely cannot be because of their cost, since these companies would seem to have NO qualms about jacking up the price of their top of the line oils to cover the outlay for these premium VIIs.

I've pointed this out to you before, this NEW technology has only been around since 2008.
I have no idea what the supply is like of this new polymer type but I'm sure it's just a matter of time before they start using it. As I pointed out, Del-Ron Motor Sport Oils, a European boutique formulator has started using it.

And no the new polymer doesn't "take up more space", in fact one of it's advantages is that less polymer is actually used. Check out the Lubrizol link on the product below:
http://www.lubrizol.com/ViscosityModifiers/Asteric/default.html


Why are you referencing information about a hydraullic and gear lubricant in a discussion about engine lubricants?

Quote:
Asteric™ VMs for High VI Fluids – The Optimal Solution
Lubrizol’s new Asteric viscosity modifiers are developed specifically for use in formulating high VI lubricants. Asteric VMs have star architecture which gives them much greater ability to boost VI compared to conventional, linear architecture VMs. Figures 2 and 3 illustrate the improved efficiency of high VI fluids formulated with Asteric VMs compared to conventional fluids in a 6 speed automatic transmission efficiency test and in an off-highway Komatsu wheel loader test.



From:
http://www.lubrizol.com/AstericViscosityModifiers/HighVIFluidEfficiency.pdf
All references to Asteric clearly state it is for hydraulic, transmission and gear lubricants. If the discussion was in reference to ATF Asteric would be a proper reference.

 

[CATERHAM]

TaterandNoodles, use in hydraulic, transmission and gear lube's is mentioned. Not sure why motor oils are not but in the Sept issue of Lubes'N'Greases, Dan Visger (Lubrizol's VM tech' Mgr) was quoted; "Asteric, offers a very high V.I. which results in fuel economy gains ......are favored in markets like Japan, where OEMs recommend very low viscosity grades."

In the same issue, Thomas Schimmel, product Mgr., hydraulic fluids, of Germany-based Evonik also mentioned their new patented PMA technology "provides excellent fuel economy performance in lower viscosity fluids such as Japanese engine oils and ATF."

So it seems this new technology was first targeted at transmission fluids et al, but the Japanese OEMs primarily have applied the technology inconjunction with their motor oil suppliers (Nippon Oil, Idemitsu, etc) to the development of ultra high VI light motor oils.

 

[Cup of Joe]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

So it seems this new technology was first targeted at transmission fluids et al, but the Japanese OEMs primarily have applied the technology inconjunction with their motor oil suppliers (Nippon Oil, Idemitsu, etc) to the development of ultra high VI light motor oils.


I do not believe you can make a case for Asteric being used in engine oils. You are making a hypothetical leap from hydraulic and transmission fluids to engine oils that is not supported by the manufacturer of said product.

http://www.lubrizol.com/ViscosityModifiers/Applications/EngineOils.html

While it is likely that the current wave of high VI engine lubricants are using a new viscosity modifier. The percentage used or performance standard met are opinions of the product users. Without clear evidence it is just as easy to suggest that new high VI engine oils are using higher then typical concentrations of viscosity modifiers/viscosity index improvers.

 

[Seventh]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

That's not exactly what's happening.
For example, Nippon Oil's flagship oil, is their Sustina 0W-20 with it's 229 VI. And while it uses the new polymer technology it also based on the development of a very high GP III+ (GTL equivalent) 4cSt base oil with a 140 VI. A PAO 4cSt oil has a VI of only 124. Even the best Group V esters base oils don't have VIs higher than about 145 with light oils and I suspect not even that high in a 4cSt oil.

Motul is not using the new polymer technology yet but their Eco-clean 0W-30 has a pretty high 183 VI and they have just released their new 300V 0W-40 with it's 186 VI.



Appreciate the response, as I said I'm no expert. I'd say Sustina is kinda the exception to the "rule" I had mentioned. I know Sustina has the new "W" base technology, but from my perspective, even though it's a GPIII, it falls into the boutique oil category based on price. Unless it's been established and I haven't seen it, the XOM produced TGMO doesn't have any super fancy base tech, just super fancy add tech. I mean, it's seven bucks a quart retail! How fancy could the base oil be?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand moar better.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

While it is likely that the current wave of high VI engine lubricants are using a new viscosity modifier. The percentage used or performance standard met are opinions of the product users. Without clear evidence it is just as easy to suggest that new high VI engine oils are using higher then typical concentrations of viscosity modifiers/viscosity index improvers.

It's not just likely, it's the ONLY way to technically acheive a finished light oil with a VI over 200.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Seventh
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

That's not exactly what's happening.
For example, Nippon Oil's flagship oil, is their Sustina 0W-20 with it's 229 VI. And while it uses the new polymer technology it also based on the development of a very high GP III+ (GTL equivalent) 4cSt base oil with a 140 VI. A PAO 4cSt oil has a VI of only 124. Even the best Group V esters base oils don't have VIs higher than about 145 with light oils and I suspect not even that high in a 4cSt oil.

Motul is not using the new polymer technology yet but their Eco-clean 0W-30 has a pretty high 183 VI and they have just released their new 300V 0W-40 with it's 186 VI.



Appreciate the response, as I said I'm no expert. I'd say Sustina is kinda the exception to the "rule" I had mentioned. I know Sustina has the new "W" base technology, but from my perspective, even though it's a GPIII, it falls into the boutique oil category based on price. Unless it's been established and I haven't seen it, the XOM produced TGMO doesn't have any super fancy base tech, just super fancy add tech. I mean, it's seven bucks a quart retail! How fancy could the base oil be?

Seventh, I agree with you.

 

[Cup of Joe]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

While it is likely that the current wave of high VI engine lubricants are using a new viscosity modifier. The percentage used or performance standard met are opinions of the product users. Without clear evidence it is just as easy to suggest that new high VI engine oils are using higher then typical concentrations of viscosity modifiers/viscosity index improvers.

It's not just likely, it's the ONLY way to technically acheive a finished light oil with a VI over 200.


Without definitive evidence it is merely theory. Using a product meant for transmission, hrydaulic and gear oil formulation as proof is misleading.

Unless you have proprietary knowledge of a product all that is being expressed are opinions. At times we are clearly losing sight of that fact. While your opinions may end up being proven correct, it is still an opinion.

Quote:
Placek believes that the added performance requirements for a VI improver in lower-viscosity engine oil may lead to the need to shift to a higher- performing polymer. “Some concern has been expressed about a loss of hydrodynamic lubrication that may accompany the use of lower viscosity oils for improved fuel efficiency,” Placek says. “If high-performance VI improvers can help maintain equipment durability while also delivering improved fuel efficiency, then there could be a shift to higher performance VI improvers for engine oils in the future.”


From: http://www.onlinedigitalpublishing.com/display_article.php?id=823007

Originally printed 14 months ago.

 

[CATERHAM]

I'm not sure what the point your trying to make here is.

The Asteric type of ultra high PMA polymers first became available to formulators in 2008. Lubrizol and Evonik (just to name two polymer suppliers) are supplying their new PMA polymers to the Japanese OEMs to formulate "lower viscosity engine oils".
In 2009, the Nippon Oil made Toyota 0W-20 with it's 214 VI became available in North America, with the highest VI engine oil by far at that time.
This is not "my theory" or just "my opinion" but the facts.

The most commonly used type of polymer VIIs are the olefin copolymers and it is impossible to acheive a 200 VI finished oil no matter how much of the stuff you use. So yes there has been a breakthrough in polymer technology that has resulted in the recent crop of ultra high VI oils hitting the market.

This tread is not really about the type of polymers used to acheive the very high VIs per se, but the high VI finished oils themselves.
They're here to stay because their advantages are so compelling and I'm sure adoption of the technology will ultimately spread across the industry.

 

[Cup of Joe]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I'm not sure what the point your trying to make here is.

The Asteric type of ultra high PMA polymers first became available to formulators in 2008. Lubrizol and Evonik (just to name two polymer suppliers) are supplying their new PMA polymers to the Japanese OEMs to formulate "lower viscosity engine oils".


First Asteric is not a type of polymer, it is the trade marked name of a polymer Lubrizol is marketing for use in ATF and hydraulic lubricants.

Quote:
The performance of Lubrizol's Asteric polymers has been recognized by OEMs and lubricant formulators and are currently being used in a variety of passenger vehicle transmission and mobile equipment applications worldwide.

http://www.lubrizol.com/ViscosityModifiers/KnowledgeCenter/ScienceBehindAsteric.html

My question to you was, why are you using information about a product that is for blending low viscosity ATF in discussion about engine lubricants? Because Lubrizol clearly states Asteric is for driveline and hydraulics you should not reference it when discussing any engine oil simple as that.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles

My question to you was, why are you using information about a product that is for blending low viscosity ATF in discussion about engine lubricants? Because Lubrizol clearly states Asteric is for driveline and hydraulics you should not reference it when discussing any engine oil simple as that.

And I've already answered that question with a quote from Lubrizol's VM tech' Mgr., Dan Visger in an article on VIs in engine oils. But I'll repeat it since you've obviously missed it:
"...Asteric, offers a very high V.I. which results in fuel economy gains....are favored in markets like Japan where OEMs recommend very low viscosity grades."
And he went on to say "Asteric is also well suited for automatic transmission fluids and rear-axle lubes where lower-viscosity products can provide added fuel economy."

So the point is, Lubrizol's Asteric brand of high VI PMAs is intended for use in engine oils.