High Shear Rate Viscosity index - one step closer.

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: SR5
BTW why is that ?
Castrol RX Mono 30 is API CF / SG
Caltex Delo Silver SAE 30 is API CF / SJ
Penrite Mono Truck SAE 30 is API CF / SG and E1

That's not so bad. It may seem bad, but most consumer grade mongrades you come across here are just API SN, with nothing else. I'd suggest that a CF/SJ or something similar (which some of the oil companies still do provide here) would be more useful. I'm sure there's enough legacy farm equipment here to justify it, too, especially when some people stick to old specs.

Even when CF/SG was current (actually even before there was SG), my dad gave short shrift to monogrades. I suppose that living on a farm with no electricity (and therefore no block heaters or oil pan heaters) and an SAE 30 when the temperature went to -40 could very quickly sour one on the utility of monogrades.

 

[OPR4H]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Some time ago I posted that I was working with the company that was producing PIB thickeners for the lubricant industry in which it's quality was way below par. A large batch (many train car loads) was sent out before proper testing and vetting. I was called in to determine the cause and raise the bar on testing.


Should have read:

Some time ago I posted that I had worked with the company that was producing PIB thickeners for the lubricant industry in which it's quality was way below par. A large batch (many train car loads) was sent out before proper testing and vetting. I was called in to determine the cause and raise the bar on testing.


Question is: Did the company went ahead and sold the defective product?)

 

[Shannow]

Hmmm, someone grizzled to photobucket, and they pulled the pics (even the ones copied from my own spreadsheets).

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Hmmm, someone grizzled to photobucket, and they pulled the pics (even the ones copied from my own spreadsheets).

Laugh !!
Post a picture of your bottom and it will stay there forever.
Post a picture of some maths calculations of viscosity under high shear conditions and it gets pulled.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Garak

That's not so bad. It may seem bad, but most consumer grade mongrades you come across here are just API SN, with nothing else. I'd suggest that a CF/SJ or something similar (which some of the oil companies still do provide here) would be more useful. I'm sure there's enough legacy farm equipment here to justify it, too, especially when some people stick to old specs.

Even when CF/SG was current (actually even before there was SG), my dad gave short shrift to monogrades. I suppose that living on a farm with no electricity (and therefore no block heaters or oil pan heaters) and an SAE 30 when the temperature went to -40 could very quickly sour one on the utility of monogrades.

Yeah, I'm sure it's not as bad as it looks. I almost purchased some Delo SAE 30, but it was easier and cheaper to buy some Magnatec 10W30 SN A3/B4 semi-synthetic at the local sales.

With monogrades, it's very climate dependent, you live in a place that regularly sees -40C, while I live in a place that regularly sees +40C

 

[userfriendly]

Old school group I mono-grade engine oils have very little in common with modern group II products.
Often SAE 30 is used as a base-line for wear and fuel economy and referred to as 20W30 in many video presentations.

So from the top, SAE 30 is now 20W30 in most cases, and SAE 40, a 25W40.
Chevron's 15W30 is likely a synthetic blend 20W30 which helps cold performance, while retaining a HTHS of 3.7, good enough to be called a 40.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Old school group I mono-grade engine oils have very little in common with modern group II products.
Often SAE 30 is used as a base-line for wear and fuel economy and referred to as 20W30 in many video presentations.

So from the top, SAE 30 is now 20W30 in most cases, and SAE 40, a 25W40.
Chevron's 15W30 is likely a synthetic blend 20W30 which helps cold performance, while retaining a HTHS of 3.7, good enough to be called a 40.


Not sure I get your point.

Are you saying that you can't buy "Newtonian" oils any more, i.e. that the straight grades on sale aren't really straight?

If you are saying that, do you think its a good or a bad thing?

 

[userfriendly]

Sorry Ducked, sometimes I shorthand my English and expect people to read my mind.

Group II base oils according to Chevron & Petro-Canada for example "rival the performance of synthetics".
Which means in my example, they have very good oxidation stability and cold flow properties.
Because of that, group II mono-grades may and usually will pass, just like full synthetic engine oils, a "W" grade.

The resistance to oxidation helps keep the oil from thickening during its service life.
It seems to me that every time mono-grade engine oils are discussed on BITOG, the same players jump all over them with their group I stories from 1948.

 

[Shannow]

Straight grades, by the J300 definition must not have additives that are intended to increase the viscosity index, or to provide a "W" rating.

If the oil however DOES meet the requirements also of one or more of the W ratings, then the manufacturer has the licence to list it as either or both...e.g. Amsoil ACD.

Will still be Newtonian.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: SR5

Castrol RX Mono 30 is API CF / SG
Caltex Delo Silver SAE 30 is API CF / SJ
Penrite Mono Truck SAE 30 is API CF / SG and E1


Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Old school group I mono-grade engine oils have very little in common with modern group II products.


So how do I know if I have group 1 or group 2?

 

[userfriendly]

SR5, I think the closest group I to AU is refined in Singapore. Shannow would know, as mixing the two products caused some varnish issues in an industrial application.
I believe XOM is the last hold out in NA producing group I base oils for specific applications.

I'm not aware if there a demand for group I engine oils, or if there are any on the market.
Maybe for a Cape Class ship with a 2-stroke?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Yeah, I'm sure it's not as bad as it looks. I almost purchased some Delo SAE 30, but it was easier and cheaper to buy some Magnatec 10W30 SN A3/B4 semi-synthetic at the local sales.

With monogrades, it's very climate dependent, you live in a place that regularly sees -40C, while I live in a place that regularly sees +40C

I'm kind of surprised at the number of SN monogrades we do see up here. Then again, most farmers who have something legacy and are looking for something like you mentioned would simply go to the oil companies directly and have it delivered, and not in 1 litre bottles.

I wish we saw +40 C a little more often than we do.

 

[userfriendly]

Just curious then, if the farmers are getting their mono-grade engine oils either delivered with fuel on site or directly from the bulk lubricant dealers, then who is buying up all those 5 gallon pails of SAE 30 & 40 from C-Tire, Wal*Mart, Co-op & farm supply centers?

What would API SL mean as it applies to SAE 30, 40 or 50? OK to use in engines that specify those grades?

 

[Garak]

I haven't seen monograde pails at Canadian Tire. If I find a pail of 15w-40 Rotella, I'm lucky. As for Walmart, I don't doubt they actually do fairly well with farmers. In fact, I'm certain they do, given all the SuperTech/TuneIt! 5 gallon pails of those monogrades, not to mention hydraulic fluid. I don't think the backyard mechanic is buying 5 gallons of tractor hydraulic fluid. But, of course, it depends where you are. If you're an hour out of the city. If you're in Hudson Bay, SK or Archerwill, SK, you're not doing a lot of visits to any Canadian Tire or Walmart, unless you like going on a very inconvenient road trip.

The Co-op doesn't count, because they carry what Co-op sells, and they do bulk fuel and lubricant deliveries, too, not to mention serve farmers retail in the rural areas. As for API SL, well, what vehicle have we ever seen that calls for an API SL monograde? We might see such a reference in a small engine manual, but even that's pushing it.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
As is, the VI does not tell the whole story such as cold cranking & pumping performance (W grade) or extreme hot performance like HTHS or NOACK of an engine oil.NO

Would a high shear rate viscosity index be a graph between two temperatures, maybe 100C & 150C ?



Probably going a bit off topic with this but I just stumbled upon an old patent which compares the properties of four nominally similar 'European' low SSI OCP VIIs in a commercial, all Group I 15W50 with similar basic visometrics and thus, similar Viscosity Indices.

Here's the link...

https://www.google.com/patents/EP1637580A1?cl=en

Despite the superficial similarities of the oils, look hard and the oils couldn't be more different.

Hitec 5748 yields the oil with the highest Noack and highest polymer loading.

Paratone 8006 (a high-ethylene OCP) yields an oil which has low Noack (by allowing the inclusion of more heavy base oil) but at the same time fails on both MRV and KV100 after KO 30 cycle shear.

Lubrizol 7077 is best on HTHS, very good on KO30 & has no problems with MRV yield stress. These are some of the qualities that have made this VII probably the biggest selling VII outside of the US.

 

[SR5]

Thanks Joe, very interesting.

Is there any general knowledge of which oil companies use which add companies ?

Or is it more likely to change with the product ? You know and ILSAC oil would use this and a A3/B4/C3 oil would use that.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Thanks Joe, very interesting.

Is there any general knowledge of which oil companies use which add companies ?

Or is it more likely to change with the product ? You know and ILSAC oil would use this and a A3/B4/C3 oil would use that.



It's very complicated but I would say the following...

To start with, generally speaking, each AddCo will favour it's own VIIs. Lubrizol will only formulate with it's in-house stuff. Likewise Oronite (Chevron's AddCo) tend to only formulate with Paratone.

Secondly, because of the prohibitively high cost of engine test programs, oils tend to be developed in 'blocks' around a single VII. Developing a combined 10W30, 10W40, 15W40, 15W50, 20W50, Mono grade mineral system around one single VII is very common. This often means that the VI is technically sub-optimum in one grade but overall, it's better & cheaper to do things this way.

Third, whilst not technically difficult, dissolving solid VIIs so that they can be more easily used, is a big deal for oil companies. This leads to a situation where they want to minimise the number of VIIs they use and spread the ones they do use to as many grades as possible. Often the price the oil company pays for solid VII is volume dependent so the more you use, the cheaper it gets. Again this can mean that technically better VIIs are 'squeezed out' in the pursuit of a bigger goal.

Fourth, the US PCMO (ILSAC) market tends to favour high SSI (typically around 50) VIIs; usually OCPs. This happens because the US has in the past not used KO30 shear, requires fuel economy testing and strongly favours absolute minimum cost oils capable of meeting low OCIs. The Europeans (and ACEA) on the other hand do use KO30 shear so you can't use 50 SSI VIIs and 22 SSIs VIIs are more the norm. Euro top-tier oils tend to be based around Shellvis VIIs. Shellvis VIIs are technically more efficient than OCPs but are double the cost which tends to make them hopelessly uncompetitive in more ordinary, price sensitive oil grades.

Hope that helps...

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe

Euro top-tier oils tend to be based around Shellvis VIIs. Shellvis VIIs are technically more efficient than OCPs but are double the cost which tends to make them hopelessly uncompetitive in more ordinary, price sensitive oil grades.

Hope that helps...


Thanks Joe, yes it helps a lot, and thanks for always trying to help me with my multitude of questions.

Given that most top tier Euro oils are made on Shellvis VIIs, if I purchased a Euro grade 5W30 or 0W40 synthetic with MB229.5 or BMW LL-01 etc from a name brand like Shell, Mobil, Valvoline, Castrol, etc could I assume that they were all made on Shellvis VII ?

I assume Shell would use nothing but Shellvis.

 

[SonofJoe]

To take your last question first, no, Shell (the oil company) don't exclusively use Shellvis VII. You might also think that as co-owners of Infineum (with Exxon) they would be fully wedded to Infineum DI additive technology. They aren't. Likewise, Chevron (the oil company) don't exclusively use DI/VII from Oronite even though they are a fully owned subsidiary. I don't know what it is about sister companies but their relationships in my experience are often disfunctional in a way that borders on the most extreme, vitriolic mutual loathing!

Regarding the first question, if it is truly Euro top-tier, with a lenthly list of top tier OEM specs on the can, then yes, odds are it's Shellvis. However you can easily make well specified 5W30 with OCP and IMO it's probably cheaper and better.

Here's another old patent for you to look at...

https://www.google.com/patents/US20120101017

Take a look at Table 1 (open the fifth thumbnail along to see the table properly formatted). You will see in the first two columns a comparison of Shellvis 261 and Lz 7077 (both nominal 22 SSI 'Euro' VIIs) in a mineral 10W40. Both oils have the same KV100 of 14.37 cst but the Shellvis oil has a much lower HTHS (cited here as Tapered Bearing Shear at 150°C) of 3.65 cP vs 4.00 cP for the Lz OCP oil. This is always the way with Shellvis VIIs and PMAs which is why I don't much care for them.

 

[SR5]

Thanks Joe, excellent information.