High maintenance costs and lack of fuel strands hydrogen busses

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

Someone mentioned millions of dollars sent to the oil companies. Also stated many companies would be out of business without Uncle Sam subsidies. Ok. I am not aware of all of these millions that the oil companies and other industries got with the exception of a few.

I do recall the oil companies getting some forms of "breaks?" from the gov for many years but never really knew exactly when or what they were.

I have read many articles since about 2018 that point out the US gov has given scary millions of dollars to over 25 "new green" energy companies with one very disturbing trend.
ALL - every single one of them did the same exact thing. It was almost as if they were all following the same road map.
Take Uncle Sam's millions in the forms of ???? (never explained well) grants , loans (NOT!) or some type of hand outs of near uncountable amounts. What did all 25 of them do? They all promised much growth , expansion , new , real , improved forms of technology , industries and energy. So, how did those promises work out...? Very poorly to say the least. ALL of them no longer exist. That is right. ALL of them took the money and in less than a year closed up, laid off all the workers from the promised great new jobs. Took their suit cases of money (my words) and rode off into the sunset...? No probably into the darkness , while they then declared bankruptcy. According to the stories there was not one word about what types of stipulations went into them getting all that money. Not one word about any oversight, reporting or even anyone to answer let alone be held responsible to answer: Where did all that money go so fast?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

That's the thing about being a "public servant." Never having to be sorry about anything.

Also, never having to suffer the financial consequences of their own poor decisions.

 

[LenZee]

What difference does it make for the statement?
I simply stated without giving $7500 to individuals to purchase electric vehicles, sales would be in the toilet.
Are you denying that?

Minimal impact.

 

[JeffKeryk]

What difference does it make for the statement?
I simply stated without giving $7500 to individuals to purchase electric vehicles, sales would be in the toilet.
Are you denying that?

I don't think it is accurate to say without subsidies EV sales would be in the toilet.
When the original subsidies subsided, EV sales continued to climb. Of course that was in a different time (and market); it was mainly Tesla as they were the biggest EV company, and still are in the US, where the subsidies are. Certainly subsidies help sales...

For example, I wonder what oil prices would be if the US Navy hadn't deployed various assets to the Strait of Hormuz, including destroyers, Coast Guard cutters, unmanned systems, and aircraft. And our Allies, of course... Quite a subsidy, doncha think? To an extent we are subsidizing much of the world!

For the record, I don't fully support EV subsidies. I do support oil subsidies but would like to see increased alternatives to oil. Like my solar panels, as they make sense around here.

 

[MVAR]

It’s cheaper to manufacture synthetic fuels like Germany did in the ‘40s than it is to mine, obtain and refine the rare earth materials to make the batteries. The problem is, you don’t need to ravage third-world countries’ landscapes and labor supplies to make synthetic fuels.

Plus, you don’t clog up the grid with periodic power sources like wind & solar; I’m no longer in power generation but somebody like @OVERKILL or @MVAR could probably comment on the second link below: current power generation (both hydrocarbon and nuclear) could easily supply the energy requirements to create syncrude/syngas, and, if this works like it appears they say, the only form of carbon sequestration that I’d ever think was viable on its face (just speeding up the circle of carbon lifecycle). Batteries are, for many reasons, not the preferred option for mobile applications, and carry serious risk when sized for grid-size supply.

Future generations of humans may well need to find alternative sources of energy storage, but in the meantime there’s no need to rush immature technologies with poor efficiencies nor serious, as-yet-unmanageable consequences when that technology fails. F-T and syngas have been in use for a hundred years and is very reliable and very safe. The infrastructure to deal with the outputs of syngas plants is already well-established, and does not require making government bets on unproven technologies. Let’s use hydrocarbon fuels and their derivatives in the meantime, while other stuff is developed.

https://www.historiascripta.org/mod...c-fuel-effort-origins-development-and-legacy/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016236124030515

I'm working shift 13 of 14 right now & am covering two desks since I'm short a power desk dispatcher tonight. Don't have time to read the linked article tonight.

I can say that the consumer prices of H2 at filling stations is downright atrocious. There's plenty of cheap high purity H2 available for bottle delivery as we used to order trailers of tube tanks for our H2 cooled generators. I remember looking at the specs of purity required for the Toyota H2 cars & the H2 supplied to generating stations exceeded Toyota's requirements. These deliveries would equate to around $2/kg in bulk but could be upwards of $7/kg for the smaller bottles used for calibration in the tech shop.

If one is a business owner, ordering a bulk delivery & filling onsite from tube trucks or large bottles would be the way to go for an H2 vehicle.

As fare as "renewables" go, many already know my thoughts here. There are green technologies that aren't implemented properly that would help the transition to other fuels or technologies. Things like solar thermal steam injection into the feedwater section of a steam turbine would allow operators to cut out fires in the boilers, lowering emissions & increasing efficiency, while producing the same amount of steam for turbine operation. This technology can be implemented into coal, nat gas or fuel oil stations. We'd also be able to keep the spinning mass & large reactive capabilities of these stations for grid support. As things are, I'm no fan of wind or PV with their rapid variance & cost increases to customers. Hell, just a couple weeks ago I watched CAISO have nearly 7,000mw of ramping in 5min to cover these IBR stations. BESS (battery) stations are also just as poorly built & executed as PV & wind, they also are known to ignore operating instructions which is extremely frustrating.

Ok, end of rant & back to work.

 

[alarmguy]

Minimal impact.

Hopefully we will find out soon!!

 

[alarmguy]

I don't think it is accurate to say without subsidies EV sales would be in the toilet.
...

WELL, I CANT WAIT TO FIND OUT!
I mean, if it its all so good, why have them?
I cant agree. TWO BILLION dollars has been given directly to the purchasers of Electric Vehicles. Let's stop that though my hopes are low now that you know who was galavanting around Washington DC

 

[alarmguy]

The purchase of hydrogen buses is simply down to 2 bit politicians virtue signalling at the expense of the tax payer. And they knew the costs before hand because studies had already shown that they would be 2.3 times more expensive than EV buses; but they still bought them.

An Italian trial back in 2021/22 concluded that Hydrogen buses cost 2.3 time s more to run than EV buses.

Sort of like that on this side of the pond.
USA taxpayers give $7,500 directly to the purchasers of electric vehicles at the point of purchase.
Meaning, you go to buy an EV and $7,500 of free taxpayer money is used as the down payment.

Not only that but someone buying a used Electric vehicle from a dealer in many cases can get $4000 directly as a down payment or tax credit. So the taxpayers here pay up to $11,000 per electric vehicle to keep the market going. I wish it would stop.

 

[PandaBear]

Toyota messed around with Hydrogen in their Mirai series. It was a big flop. Nowhere to buy fuel, except around the southern California area. And the fuel got insanely expensive when the subsidies ran out.

I've never understood the fascination with Hydrogen. It takes more energy to make it than it produces. Great for a 8-1/2 minute ride on the Space Shuttle. Lousy for automobiles.

It looks like it was put together by a alcoholic plumber.

View attachment 280128

I can tell you about what happened 30 years ago when I was in school:

Hydrogen fuel cell was believed to be a stop gap solution to full battery electric car because in theory you have higher energy content and faster refueling speed with hydrogen than electric. This was correct except somehow electric leap forward and reach the destination before stop gap solution reached the same spot. Hydrogen is not a fuel source, just an energy storage medium, and a lousy one especially if you crack methane to get hydrogen, might as well do SOFC and store natural gas directly in the car instead of hydrogen, or just burn natural gas.

So, no point in 2025 anymore despite it was a potential solution back in 1995.

To be fair 70M Lb for 130 buses is not a bad experiment, we did way worse in other things in the US. Also most new technologies need some subsidies to jump start (like hybrid vehicles had, and very soon EV will, get off and stand on its own somewhere in the market).

 

[Torrid]

I can tell you about what happened 30 years ago when I was in school:

Hydrogen fuel cell was believed to be a stop gap solution to full battery electric car because in theory you have higher energy content and faster refueling speed with hydrogen than electric. This was correct except somehow electric leap forward and reach the destination before stop gap solution reached the same spot. Hydrogen is not a fuel source, just an energy storage medium, and a lousy one especially if you crack methane to get hydrogen, might as well do SOFC and store natural gas directly in the car instead of hydrogen, or just burn natural gas.

So, no point in 2025 anymore despite it was a potential solution back in 1995.

To be fair 70M Lb for 130 buses is not a bad experiment, we did way worse in other things in the US. Also most new technologies need some subsidies to jump start (like hybrid vehicles had, and very soon EV will, get off and stand on its own somewhere in the market).

I fully believe that if containment and transportation of hydrogen wasn't so much more involved it would have been cheaper and more likely to have grown.

The fact is that plugging in is easier to do even for slow refueling at home and as you mention batteries keep getting better for faster public charging.

 

[PandaBear]

I fully believe that if containment and transportation of hydrogen wasn't so much more involved it would have been cheaper and more likely to have grown.

The fact is that plugging in is easier to do even for slow refueling at home and as you mention batteries keep getting better for faster public charging.

If it is so easy to do hydrogen then we would have home fuel cell everywhere by now, but reality is reality and hydrogen makes no sense as an energy storage unless you have a special need.

 

[KrisZ]

Hey, at least they got 139 busses out of the deal.
The latest government “investments” don’t even require delivering a product or service.

 

[alarmguy]

This is for solely to bring some balance to the thread. I am NOT defending Europes H2 issues. I am NOT saying EV buses would be less reliable. I do in time think at least for the next decade EV buses MAY be more reliable.
I am saying that I am sure not everyone knows about issues with EV buses in the USA. SO to bring some balance I wanted to point out, being EV buses are also new to the world. There are some issues and a lot of wasted money with them.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/electric-buses-sitting-unused-cities-across-the-us

As far as cars I was surprised to read this, NOT that it would sway me if I wanted an EV.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets...ess-reliable-gas-engine-cars-consumer-reports

Here is a VERY recent school bus trial in New York State. It seems like the goal is roughly 50 miles of battery power a day. Just for reading. Im just saying, new tech has issues. EV technology is way ahead of the curve vs any possilbity of H2 for the masses.
I think it's too soon to know any outcome with any technology. I remember when music CDs was the end all of end user music technology. I tend to think that changing electronic technology is easier then fossil fuel and why I think there has to be something better than the current (LOL no pun intended)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/technolog...xed-results-in-zero-emission-push/ar-AA1F9Rsa

 

[SC Maintenance]

Cash for clunkers cost $3 billion in 2009 so $2 billion to get the electric car ball rolling isn't that bad imo.

Cash for Clunkers deprived the lower income level people with reliable transportation for years, and put millions on social assistance programs that might have otherwise not been there. It also destroyed working real assets. It may have been one of the worst public policy decisions ever.

So the trillions given to the manufacturers of fossil fuel cars was a wise choice?

Please provide a reference to these trillions of subsidies supposedly spent. Since its government money all data should be publicly available. I love data!

 

[2strokeNorthstar]

I was interested until your last statement about the success of electric grid storage. It has been one failure (or fire) after another in California. It's an environmental catastrophe

 

[OVERKILL]

I was interested until your last statement about the success of electric grid storage. It has been one failure (or fire) after another in California. It's an environmental catastrophe

You may want to defer to my other musings on that subject if that's the gist you got of my opinion on the matter. Saying it's successful in terms of uptake is not the same as saying it's a product that warrants support or is without issue. Yes, grid storage battery fires are prolific, and yet, we keep installing more of them. Ontario now has one online for example. Contrast that to hydrogen power generation or storage, where do we see that? That was my point. It's not an endorsement, just an observation on the state of uptake.

 

[4WD]

I don't think it is accurate to say without subsidies EV sales would be in the toilet.
When the original subsidies subsided, EV sales continued to climb. Of course that was in a different time (and market); it was mainly Tesla as they were the biggest EV company, and still are in the US, where the subsidies are. Certainly subsidies help sales...

For example, I wonder what oil prices would be if the US Navy hadn't deployed various assets to the Strait of Hormuz, including destroyers, Coast Guard cutters, unmanned systems, and aircraft. And our Allies, of course... Quite a subsidy, doncha think? To an extent we are subsidizing much of the world!

For the record, I don't fully support EV subsidies. I do support oil subsidies but would like to see increased alternatives to oil. Like my solar panels, as they make sense around here.

Far more to do with oil alone … The LNG powers major manufacturers in SE Asia … You know, all the keepin’ it cheap we have been hearing so much about …

 

[dogememe]

Hydrogen generally sucks. Battery EV makes way more sense overall IMO.

 

[PandaBear]

This is for solely to bring some balance to the thread. I am NOT defending Europes H2 issues. I am NOT saying EV buses would be less reliable. I do in time think at least for the next decade EV buses MAY be more reliable.
I am saying that I am sure not everyone knows about issues with EV buses in the USA. SO to bring some balance I wanted to point out, being EV buses are also new to the world. There are some issues and a lot of wasted money with them.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/electric-buses-sitting-unused-cities-across-the-us

As far as cars I was surprised to read this, NOT that it would sway me if I wanted an EV.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets...ess-reliable-gas-engine-cars-consumer-reports

Here is a VERY recent school bus trial in New York State. It seems like the goal is roughly 50 miles of battery power a day. Just for reading. Im just saying, new tech has issues. EV technology is way ahead of the curve vs any possilbity of H2 for the masses.
I think it's too soon to know any outcome with any technology. I remember when music CDs was the end all of end user music technology. I tend to think that changing electronic technology is easier then fossil fuel and why I think there has to be something better than the current (LOL no pun intended)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/technolog...xed-results-in-zero-emission-push/ar-AA1F9Rsa

As always, the devil is in the details.

EV buses with overhead power lines have been around in San Francisco for .... nearly 100 years now? The problem is always the battery and the reputation of the manufacturers building it. I will never believe a startup building a car more reliable than a Corolla for sure, but if a mature bus manufacturer build it I think the chances of success is high.

In my school district we have been running EV buses for a while, it is working very reliably. The problem is you can't just expect it to be like a diesel bus that has been proven in all climates.

 

[I<3oil]

Sux 2 suck