Help me interpret UOA information

[FrankN4]

I did a UOA research of 5W-30 compared to 10W-30 and posted the results in a thread a few days ago. Now, with help, we decided to do UOA research to compare the 5 major brands of 5W-30 oils against each other. The main thing we were going to look for was shearing down to a 20 grade oil. The oil I got to research was a very popular 5W-30, one of the most popular oils on this site. I discovered something I found that was very much eye opening. However, I am not sure of my interpretation.

In the brand I was researching: 35% of the OCI was over 5000(6915 average miles) miles and the oil had thickened to a 100C cSt greater than the origional 100C cSt of 10.2(10.68 average) sometimes much greater!

In the same brand, 36% of the OCI was less than 5000 miles(3900 average miles)and the oil had sheared down to a 20 grade(8.8 average 100C cSt)

In the same brand, 21% of the OCI ran the gamut of 1500 miles on the low side to over 7000 miles on the high side and was still in grade.

I went back and looked at wear metals, calc, boron, moly, phos, zink, contaminates. I didn't find a trend.

The only thing that might be called a trend(remember, I did not include any botique oil, only the 5 major brands) is that brand loyalty and grade loyalty(brand X in XW-30 is the best oil ever made) is very high.

Overall results might tell us something if we are able to interpret them. They might set a TREND

One of the oils most praised here gave the highest percentage of thickening above the origional 100C cSt and the highest percentage of shearing below 9.2! Both in the same brand and grade of oil, possibly a trend,(brand loyalty) but, I never saw the vehicles or talked with the drivers so I can't be sure of why.

One of the oils, if not the oil, most bad mouthed about here gave the highest percentage of staying in grade, of the 5 brands looked at, possibly a trend, over or under, but, I never saw the vehicles or spoke to the drivers.

I now believe that a UOA(UNLESS WE SEE SOME OUTSTANDING TREND) is of value only to the individual driver and his driving habits, his vehicle, his chosen brand of oil, his chosen OCI, his other maintance habits, etc. It might tell him that brand X is not working for him and his habits and he needs to try brand Y.

When we get the courage, we am going to compare a botique oil to the average of the 5 major brand oils.

 

[JAG]

I'll try to help you but I need to see the data you are looking at. Cool project.

 

[kd5byb]

Many months ago, I started a discussion about a method to normalize UOA's in an attempt to make apples to apples comparisons between oils in different engines that were driven different mileages, etc... After much discussion, the concensus was that the amount of UOA's need to come up with a statistically rigorous normalization method would be enormous. It just wasn't in the realm of possibility.

Another conclusion we came to was that UOA's are more of a broad tool to tell you when something was wrong, rather than telling you what oil may be best.

Like you pointed out, if a UOA shows shearing in your vehicle (or high wear) it means that this engine has a problem. It's not prognostic - it cannot say that this oil will always have the same problem in other engines of the same make/type/OCI/driving style.

I'd love to see the source data and how you executed this test. It's a great thing to research! I'd like to get a feel for if no trend was noted becuase there really is no trend, or there may have been enough uncertainty or error in the UOA that prohibited the trend from showing itself. It could also be a result of test to test variability due to environmental or driving style changes. I'd love to get a feel for how you controlled your test to test environmental variability.

thanks much,
ben

 

[ChiTDI]

FrankN4 - intersting project, but what oil was "bad mouthed"? They all seem to beat up by somebody at one time or another. The "aceite de dia" changes over a period of time.

 

[buster]

Oil analysis is a great tool, but it certainly has it's limitations.

This is why manufactures rely on engine tear downs as the "Gold Standard" in lubrication evaluation.

 

[RI_RS4]

Originally Posted By: buster
Oil analysis is a great tool, but it certainly has it's limitations.

This is why manufactures rely on engine tear downs as the "Gold Standard" in lubrication evaluation.


Buster, good try, but not quite. Engine tear down is one of the many measures used to evaluate a lubricant. It is certainly not the "gold standard." Just one of the many standards used, quite a few of which are ASTM test standards. UOA analysis is also one of the measures used, both in lube testing and in engine development.

 

[RI_RS4]

Frank,

I'm not sure what you mean by "UOA research". Could you elaborate? You don't mention how the research was conducted.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
FrankN4 - intersting project, but what oil was "bad mouthed"? They all seem to beat up by somebody at one time or another. The "aceite de dia" changes over a period of time.


I am betting the "much touted" is Amsoil and the oil that is picked on is Mobil 1.

I remember the Camaro oil life study mirrored those results.

 

[buster]

True OVERK1LL. I do know that for one successful automaker involved in racing, the tear down is the ultimate test. Of course many other ASTM testing is also done prior to even being used.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
FrankN4 - intersting project, but what oil was "bad mouthed"? They all seem to beat up by somebody at one time or another. The "aceite de dia" changes over a period of time.


I am betting the "much touted" is Amsoil and the oil that is picked on is Mobil 1.

I remember the Camaro oil life study mirrored those results.


Quote:
I did not include any botique oil.


Never/rarely have we seen Amsoil shear.

The Camaro life study was highly flawed, on a car with issues, but that's a different subject.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
FrankN4 - intersting project, but what oil was "bad mouthed"? They all seem to beat up by somebody at one time or another. The "aceite de dia" changes over a period of time.


I am betting the "much touted" is Amsoil and the oil that is picked on is Mobil 1.

I remember the Camaro oil life study mirrored those results.


Quote:
I did not include any botique oil.


Never/rarely have we seen Amsoil shear.

The Camaro life study was highly flawed, on a car with issues, but that's a different subject.



Seriously?

I remember the Amsoil did VERY well wear-wise, but got thicker. The Mobil did very well as well, but didn't have the thickening problem. Neither oil performed poorly.....

 

[Pablo]

Yeah sorta off topic - look at the add amounts, when filters were changed, when oil was added, how the study wasn't controlled and the car was having some unrelated issues.....maybe it IS a good example for this topic after all!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Yeah sorta off topic - look at the add amounts, when filters were changed, when oil was added, how the study wasn't controlled and the car was having some unrelated issues.....maybe it IS a good example for this topic after all!


Not touching that with a 10-foot pole

 

[buster]

I think both the Amsoil/M1 performed about the same all things considered, which is what I would have expected. My .02

 

[Cory]

Hard to say one oil is better than another with so many variables.

Comments form Blackstone from my last UOA on my 2000 300M.
Quote:
We have found that brand doesn't really make much of a difference in how an engine wears --
it's mostly how you drive it, and how much metal it tends to make, that determines how long you can run
the oil.

This is after I ran 5K, 10K, 13K OCIs with Mobil 1 EP and switched to PP and sent in a sample after 5K for comparison.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: buster
I think both the Amsoil/M1 performed about the same all things considered, which is what I would have expected. My .02


That's pretty much what I've seen as well.

 

[FrankN4]

This was not any sort of test that I/we conducted. We went to the used oil analysis forum on this site. We took what we beleived to be the five most common synthetic oils: Mobil 1, Pennzoil Platnum, Valvoline Synpower, Castrol Syntec, and Quaker State Q. We made a column for each of the oils. In the coulmn for that oil we put the OCI and the ending 100C cSt compared to the starting 100C cSt. We were then going to average the OCI and ending 100C cSt. We looked for contaminants, fuel, antifreeeze and things that could slip in through the air intake. If we believed the OCI was ridicilous and not a true indication we tossed that out. For example we had one OCI of 20,000+ miles and the ending cSt was 16+.

We discovered that Mobil 1 sheared down past 9.3 less than the other 4. We found that Pennzoil Platnum sheared down past 9.3 the most(2973 miles on the low side and 4818 miles on the high side) and thickened above 10.2, its starting 100C cSt, the most(5300 on the low side and 9352 on the high side).

We just plain old turned chicken and decided we were just going to add fuel to feuding fires, and terminated the research because we were no longer convinced that it would accomplish anything we wanted. It really depends on the vehicle, maintenance habits, driving habits, driving conditions, and much more than just the brand and grade of oil.

We may go back some day and research the UOA forum and check every 5W-30 oil looking for nothing but a trend. That is the only thing I think is really worth researching, now.

To compare 0W to 5W to 10W seemed to work out rather well. It was an eye opener for me. To try to determine the best brand of XW-30 compared to other brands of XW-30 is a little beyond my willingness to invest time and effort. Even if you looked at UOA from same year/size/type engines, you still don't really know the driving habits, maintenance habits, driving conditions, and other needful information.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Pablo would the M1 used in that same car have had to face the same issues? So then it would be a far test right? ALl cars have some type of issue.

Amsoil seldom shears but it almost always thickens! We do not see M1 shear very often either and it seldom thickens. The exception would their 0W40 it almost always shear's and if used long enough it thickens back up.

I take great comfort inknowing that M1 almost always comes in second place over all when Amsoil test's it for it's add's! I think it is priced grat for a product that comes in second over all year after year after year!

 

[FZ1]

Very interesting. Thanks for your time and effort.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
Pablo would the M1 used in that same car have had to face the same issues? So then it would be a far test right? ALl cars have some type of issue.

Amsoil seldom shears but it almost always thickens!



No actually - problems do develop in cars over time. The car had some sort of emission problem mid test. That's just one reason why a singular car test is not valid. Yes old TSO used to thicken into 40 range, but with no spike in wear. But show me one UOA in the last few years where "Amsoil" thickened out of specified range.