Health Care value gap in U.S

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Originally Posted By: eljefino
they could probably have a vaccine for herpes but would rather sell drugs that mask the itchy issue as needed for the rest of one's life. Why I support gov't and nonprofit university research parallel to the drug companies...


You just watch, the same people against gardasil (HPV vaccine) would protest even more with a herpes vaccine, claims that it will encourage premarital sex, against god's will that those who commit adultery should be punished, the drug companies are there to promote profit rather than helping people, the parents know best, their sons and daughters don't need it because they grew up with great moral education and religious believes, yada yada yada.


And of course, class action lawsuit of some sort...
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Do you have a link for that?



Now that he's given you a link ..to prove what he asserted ...what do you have to say??

Let's not leave this untended, Tempest...

Certainly. If you actually read the paper he quotes, it shows the flaws in the idea that Medicare is more efficient. Namely, it doesn't show all the true costs of medicare. It also doesn't factor in profit that medicare also does not receive.

In short, they are comparing apples to oranges:
Quote:
The Underlying Distortion in Medicare’s Administrative Cost Ratio. As stated
earlier, Medicare arrives at its administrative cost ratio by dividing the amount of
money reportedly spent on administration by the amount of claims paid. Unfortunately,
that approach gives Medicare an unfair advantage. That’s because Medicare serves the
senior population, while comprehensive private insurance policies target the under-65
population. Seniors spend, on average, more money on health care than those under 65.
As a result, the average claim paid in Medicare is higher than that for those under 65.
To use an easy example, suppose the average claim for a senior is $2,000, while the
average claim for a person under age 65 is $1,000. And suppose that the cost to
administer both claims is $100. In this scenario, the administrative cost ratio for the
private sector would be 10 percent, but only 5 percent for Medicare. In other words,
even if the administrative costs are exactly the same in Medicare and the private sector,
Medicare will look more efficient because the average claim is larger. How much
larger?
Table 3
Estimated Private Market Expenses (percent of earned premium)
Market (Profits)
Admin without
Commission, Premium
Tax and Profit
Commission
and
Premium Tax
Total
Admin
Individual 3.0% 12.5% 14.5% 30.0%
Small Group 2.0% 10.5% 10.5% 23.0%
Large Group 2.5% 8.0% 2.0% 12.5%
Composite Private 2.5% 8.9% 5.3% 16.7%
$100 Admin Costs
$ 1,000 Claims
= 10% Admin Cost Ratio
$100 Admin Costs
$2,000 Claims
= 5% Admin Cost Ratio
10
"In many states
policies sold in the
individual market are
very affordable."
For medical costs only, excluding out-of-pocket spending, in 2003:
· Medicare spent $6,600 per person.
· The private sector spent only $2,700 per person.
· That means that average per-person claim in Medicare is more than
twice the average per-person claim in the private sector.
So how does that affect the administrative cost ratio? The Milliman report concludes
that when the relevant administrative costs are included in Medicare, the ratio is about
5.2 percent. If the numbers were adequately “handicapped” for comparison with the
private sector, the Medicare administrative cost ratio would be roughly 6 to 8 percent.
And there are other distortions that could affect the ratio. For example, Medicare deals
with each senior separately; there are no family policies in Medicare. Not so in the
private sector, where a large percentage are family policies. Why does that make a
difference? Because the private sector bundles the premiums in a family policy. The
cost of a four-person family policy will be significantly less than if all four were rated
separately. That practice reduces the total premium received, but has no effect on
ultimate claims costs — which negatively affects the administrative cost ratio.
The point is that even if the numbers show Medicare’s administrative cost as lower than
the private sector, variations such as higher average per-person claims could vastly
underestimate Medicare’s true administrative costs.

Quote:
http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/resources/pdf/CAHI_Medicare_Admin_Final_Publication.pdf

Even the text in his link notes that the cost of the IRS to collect funds is left out.

The numbers are bad.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest

Certainly. If you actually read the paper he quotes, it shows the flaws in the idea that Medicare is more efficient. Namely, it doesn't show all the true costs of medicare. It also doesn't factor in profit that medicare also does not receive.

...


The numbers are bad.


So what do you suggest chief?
 
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Quote:
The Underlying Distortion in Medicare’s Administrative Cost Ratio. As stated
earlier, Medicare arrives at its administrative cost ratio by dividing the amount of
money reportedly spent on administration by the amount of claims paid. Unfortunately,
that approach gives Medicare an unfair advantage. That’s because Medicare serves the
senior population, while comprehensive private insurance policies target the under-65
population. Seniors spend, on average, more money on health care than those under 65.
As a result, the average claim paid in Medicare is higher than that for those under 65.
To use an easy example, suppose the average claim for a senior is $2,000, while the
average claim for a person under age 65 is $1,000. And suppose that the cost to
administer both claims is $100. In this scenario, the administrative cost ratio for the
private sector would be 10 percent, but only 5 percent for Medicare. In other words,
even if the administrative costs are exactly the same in Medicare and the private sector,
Medicare will look more efficient because the average claim is larger. How much
larger?


I can't read the numbers ..but this (above) assertion doesn't hold water. Medicare sets lower fees for all services. DPW/Medicare/etc ..all are USED as excuses for raising private pay fees. Since they're only getting $0.57/$ ..they allegedly have to bill the rest of the (cough-cough) "REAL" cost to producers (earners).

You can't play it both ways. While seniors may indeed receive more services, those services are provided at (cough-cough) reduced cost.

It's easy to play poor when doctors set the protocols ..certify the facilities ..sit on the boards of the insurance companies.
 
But medicare is not the ONLY ones setting low fees.

I get a benefits statement everytime my UHC plan is used. Most services are approved at about 50-60% of the submitted cost, probably on-par with Medicare/Medicaid.

To get a better, and again not perfect, what are the figures for Medicaid, which addresses those who typically are not of retirement age?
 
Originally Posted By: javacontour
But medicare is not the ONLY ones setting low fees.


To get a better, and again not perfect, what are the figures for Medicaid, which addresses those who typically are not of retirement age?


What does this have to do with the cost of medical care? It's funny money that's manipulated and leveraged and capitalized upon. It's a con job that happens in plain sight.
 
Medicaid pays below cost. The bread and butter of the providers is Medicare and private insurance. Medicaid can be a life saver if there are DISH (Disproportionate Share) funds at the end of year.

There is a lot of cross-subsidization going on. That is done to cover services where the insurance pays below cost (psychiatric care is one example) or to cover the bad debt expense from self-pay patients. [...One side note - self pay patients are charge the full cost of care which can be as much as 50% higher than what an insurance company would pay. That is why a lot of these patients end up in bankruptcy...]

Also, the medical billing for the providers is administrative overhead. Imagine keeping up with the requirements of the different payers, follow up, and efforts to collect. The private insurance companies are also tardier payers than Medicare - 90+ days in accounts receivable versus 15-30 days for Medicare. that's why the providers like Medicare.

The issue of the costs being higher for Medicare treatments versus private insurance - Medicare covers the elderly who by nature require a ot more health care than the young. Add to that the fact that quite a few of the patients are formerly uninsured and thus in poor health due to lack of preventative care, and you have high costs.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: javacontour
But medicare is not the ONLY ones setting low fees.


To get a better, and again not perfect, what are the figures for Medicaid, which addresses those who typically are not of retirement age?


What does this have to do with the cost of medical care? It's funny money that's manipulated and leveraged and capitalized upon. It's a con job that happens in plain sight.

You are exactly right. The medicare numbers are manipulated downward by excluding things.

I provided the link so you would be able to read the numbers.

Private industry has no way to gain from higher costs.
Lets not forget the $60 billion in medicare fraud.
http://www.insurancefraud.org/stats.htm

Quote:
The Milliman data - which is actually 2006 for hospitals and 2007 for physicians - which means IT’S WORSE NOW - calculates a $90 BILLION cost shift from the public payors and onto the private plans. More specifically, Milliman indicates the cost shift is worth a $51 billion differential in hospital payments, and a $40 billion differential in payments to physicians.

Calculating hospital operating margins actually draws a starker picture. Hospitals collectively lose $30 billion on Medicare and Medicaid and earn $66 billion on commercial business, thereby generating a $36 billion gain overall on their insured patients. They lose another $13 billion on their uninsured patients, netting out to a $24 billion - or 3.6% - operating margin.

This means private sector employers and their employees and families are paying as much as 10-11% more than they would otherwise pay for health insurance - to fund the provider operating deficit created by Medicare and Medicaid.

http://www.letstalkhealthcare.org/uncategorized/quantifying-the-medicare-medicaid-cost-shift/
Quote:
With the government sector accounting for more than 40% of healthcare spending (http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/costgrowth/) and with insurance and managed care companies and individual patients following Medicare's methodologies, the overwhelming majority of players in the healthcare market in the US are following a centrally planned socialist approach. The process and the results are disastrous and inevitable. First, Medicare compiles observed production cost data to calculate reimbursement rates or prices. Then healthcare providers take this price and it's implied expected future profit to bid up the price of the factors of production. The following year, these factors of production are then fed back to Medicare as costs to be used to determine the new reimbursement rates, and so on and so forth, into an ever ending negative feedback loop.

Is it any wonder that we have a collapsing healthcare system with ever increasing costs, misallocation of capital, meaningless prices, shortages, cues, rationing, cherry picking and fraud? Is it any wonder that a significant and ever increasing portion of patients are being priced out of the market and turning up in our emergency rooms as uninsured? Is it any wonder that patients, physicians, insurance companies and hospitals are pitted against one another with missaligned incentives in a battle to maximize Medicare dollars? Is it any wonder that Medicare taxes and deficit spending are causing an unprecedented inter-generational transfer of income from younger working poorer uninsured Americans to older, retired, insured and wealthier Americans?

http://mises.org/Community/blogs/edgardo...mbursement.aspx
That last article explains the problem very well in the body of the text.
 
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Quote:
Blue Shield of California and Premera Blue Cross in Mountlake Terrace, Wash., have worked with Milliman, the actuarial and consulting firm, to evaluate exactly how much more private health plans have to pay in their states because of government underpayments. In Washington, where Medicare pays about a quarter less than private insurers, hospitals in 2004 charged private payers $738 million to make up for underpayments, while physicians charged private payers $620 million to make up for shortfalls, putting the total at close to $1.4 billion, according to the Premera study. That translated to $902 per family insurance policy, or 13 percent of all commercial hospital and physician payments.
Milliman found similar results in California, where employers and employees paid about $951 per family insurance policy to cover losses from Medicare and Medi-Cal. The cost shift rose from 3.6 percent of premiums in 2000 to 9.5 percent in 2004.

http://www.managedcaremag.com/archives/0612/0612.costshift.html
So what we have here is a government program that under pays for services it requires, causes private insurance rates to go up so more and more people loose it, increases costs to employers so even more people loose jobs (and coverage) via taxes, and then steps in and makes the claim that the private sector is falling down on the job regarding health care so ....ergo.... we need to have nationalized health care. Brilliant!

Government at work with your tax dollars....
frown.gif


All of these crazy discussions do pay off.
 
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Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
Blue Shield of California and Premera Blue Cross in Mountlake Terrace, Wash., have worked with Milliman, the actuarial and consulting firm, to evaluate exactly how much more private health plans have to pay in their states because of government underpayments. In Washington, where Medicare pays about a quarter less than private insurers, hospitals in 2004 charged private payers $738 million to make up for underpayments, while physicians charged private payers $620 million to make up for shortfalls, putting the total at close to $1.4 billion, according to the Premera study. That translated to $902 per family insurance policy, or 13 percent of all commercial hospital and physician payments.
Milliman found similar results in California, where employers and employees paid about $951 per family insurance policy to cover losses from Medicare and Medi-Cal. The cost shift rose from 3.6 percent of premiums in 2000 to 9.5 percent in 2004.

http://www.managedcaremag.com/archives/0612/0612.costshift.html
So what we have here is a government program that under pays for services it requires, causes private insurance rates to go up so more and more people loose it, increases costs to employers so even more people loose jobs (and coverage) via taxes, and then steps in and makes the claim that the private sector is falling down on the job regarding health care so ....ergo.... we need to have nationalized health care. Brilliant!

Government at work with your tax dollars....
frown.gif


All of these crazy discussions do pay off.


Not really true. As I mentioned above, only Medicaid pays below cost. But even they have the DISH funds to help the providers with higher proportion of Medicaid patients (economically disadvantaged areas like rural areas and inner cities).
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Government at work with your tax dollars....
frown.gif


All of these crazy discussions do pay off.


Again, what do you suggest chief? Private insurance also underpay the cost of the system, and how's that going to solve our problem?
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
Blue Shield of California and Premera Blue Cross in Mountlake Terrace, Wash., have worked with Milliman, the actuarial and consulting firm, to evaluate exactly how much more private health plans have to pay in their states because of government underpayments. In Washington, where Medicare pays about a quarter less than private insurers, hospitals in 2004 charged private payers $738 million to make up for underpayments, while physicians charged private payers $620 million to make up for shortfalls, putting the total at close to $1.4 billion, according to the Premera study. That translated to $902 per family insurance policy, or 13 percent of all commercial hospital and physician payments.
Milliman found similar results in California, where employers and employees paid about $951 per family insurance policy to cover losses from Medicare and Medi-Cal. The cost shift rose from 3.6 percent of premiums in 2000 to 9.5 percent in 2004.

http://www.managedcaremag.com/archives/0612/0612.costshift.html
So what we have here is a government program that under pays for services it requires, causes private insurance rates to go up so more and more people loose it, increases costs to employers so even more people loose jobs (and coverage) via taxes, and then steps in and makes the claim that the private sector is falling down on the job regarding health care so ....ergo.... we need to have nationalized health care. Brilliant!

Government at work with your tax dollars....
frown.gif


All of these crazy discussions do pay off.


You prove my point(s) quite well. All costs are paid by producers.


That means the the MEDICAL COMMUNITY (drugs, equipment, facilities, and DOCTORS) are running a socialized program for the enhancement of medical professional interests via the INSURANCE CARTEL.

Regardless of the funding source ..the clowns charge too much and keep charging too much no matter how one attempts to contain it.

It's highway robbery.
 
Hey, pal ...a whole lot of R&D went into that! Compare it to the $25 post WWII prosthetic ..it's 1000X better. Teams of engineers poured over the design for decades ..massage this ..tweak that.

Finally, one of them was watching SPEED when they were doing a 4X4 project and saw how Johnny Joint handled things ..and then sent it off to be complicated ..then sent it off to be certified.

$25k ..no problem.
 
Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
I just saw a request yesterday for a $25K prosthetic leg yesterday.
LOL.gif



What is the unit price and volume discount?

In our industry, when we buy equipment it is buy 3 get 10 free. Most of the cost is R&D and NRE (Non recurring engineering).
 
When my Mrs had knee surgery, part of the bill was a $400 slingshot rubber...that they didn't let us keep.

How come I can buy a slingshot rubber in the gun shop for $12 ?

And that $400 was in 2001 dollars.
 
Quote:
it sounds like you're with an HMO, where the PMP apparently just there to refer you to the appropriate specialist.


Nope.

Quote:
That's why I'm with a PPO


That's what we have. I need no referrals to go to anyone. It's considered a very good plan by most measures.

Quote:
That's why I'm with a PPO and took time to research my PMP, with personal endorsements informing the decision. In any case, if you don't like her care, find somebody else. Try a D.O.


She is a D.O.

This is a "business model" that's sector wide. Thank goodness dental care is 100% elective unless it causes an emergency condition or you would have another whole group of professionals milking the society for the maximum that they can under tertiary socialized costs through private administration through the insurance cartel.

She does NO TREATMENT of MERIT. None of them do. One D.O. in her group still does spinal manipulations if asked. She's part of a full spectrum group. Cardiology, Gastro-intestinal, Oncology, Pulmonary, etc..etc. You eventually take the tour. Basically most of medicine has evolved to a never ending battery of tests at routine intervals. Every 3 months, 6 months ..1 year.

When I was first diagnosed with diabetes, the A1C tests was prohibitively expensive to be performed more often then every 6 months EXCEPT where justified. Now it's a 3-6 month routine procedure ..at the same prohibitive cost.

Just keep adding expensive diagnostic procedures to the routine ..and up goes the costs. It's a very easy thing to see.

The idea of JUST going to a doctor for ailments is an antiquated concept. They won't even issue a 'script unless you've seen them within the past 6 months.

Those testing facilities (personnel, equipment, processes) creat an institution to themselves that gets hungry.

It gets fed.

$100+ billed in funny money ($50-65) with a $20 copay for admin costs every 90 days ..add a $35 copay for specialists ..plus thousands in routine testing. If they add a new specialty that "may" apply to your condition(s) ..you need to see that specialist ...your doctor pouring over your chart figuring what test you can qualify for based on what your insurance allows ....and what do you get???
21.gif


Without anything being wrong with you, the cost of medical care is already too expensive at the baseline. Add any real treatment, and you're into ultra expensive care.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
When my Mrs had knee surgery, part of the bill was a $400 slingshot rubber...that they didn't let us keep.

How come I can buy a slingshot rubber in the gun shop for $12 ?

And that $400 was in 2001 dollars.


I was told by someone who works in the insurance industry that the insurance company always pay below cost on the common items so the health institute have to make that up by charging these ridiculous fee for rubber, pushing you around in a wheelchair (for $5000), etc. In the end the insurance company knows and let them do it, all part of the negotiation game.

That, my friend, is what's messed up with the system. Just pay a fair cost + profit and get rid of these ridiculous add on to neutralize the below cost care.
 
If you want cheaper knee surgery, you can come to Canada and get it done at a discount shop. You might have to wait a year.

For $25k, that prosthetic leg better be able to pick up pennies off the street with the toes.
 
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