HDEO in my Stuff?

[Gebo]

I have read and searched and I'm not sure I have found a consensus (imagine that on this website

) but what is wrong with running a HDEO in all the cars and van in my sig? What is right with it? I believe, from what i have read, that it will not hurt my catalytic converters or my O2 Sensors.

If I had unlimited resources I'd probably run RedLine but I cannot afford it and cannot go 10K w/o changing the oil. I use OEM filters with 5000 mile OCI's. I see gallons of the HDEO on sale for as low as $12.99 quite often. Please note, I cannot go 10K on an oil change so it will be futile to change my mind. I'm using Kendall Full synthetic 5w30 now at right at $5/qt.

On last request, please don't say to use whatever is on sale. I want to know about the advantages and disadvantages of using HDEO in all my stuff (including lawnmowers).

 

[A_Harman]

If you are not wanting to run OCI's past 5k miles, HDEO is a waste of money. Just run a good quality 10w30 PCMO. With a large fleet like yours, I would think you'd want extended OCI's. If you really want to do it, I would recommend Rotella T5 10w30, and extend the oil changes to get your money's worth.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Gebo
On last request, please don't say to use whatever is on sale. I want to know about the advantages and disadvantages of using HDEO in all my stuff (including lawnmowers).


To be honest, your biggest concerns would be viscosity and warranty issues. I'm assuming the only vehicle in your signature that could even potentially still be on warranty would be the 2008 Chevy van. Even if it's still under warranty, it's probably at the tail end of it anyhow. As for catalytic converters, if your vehicles aren't consuming a bunch of oil, it's not a big deal. Even if vehicles consume a bunch of oil, I don't think a low ZDDP oil is going to help a cat run indefinitely, anyhow.

As for viscosity, that's something to consider. If any of your vehicles originally specified a 20 grade, you'll have to include that in your considerations. If you don't mind going out of grade, no problem.

If it were me making the decision, I'd go one of three ways. The first option I'll list isn't HDEO, but it's "close" when it comes to logistics. Our Walmarts (I don't know about the States) sell SN/GF-5 Super Tech at very attractive prices, rivalling HDEO prices, in five gallon pails. So, if I were in your position, I'd consider going with five gallon pails of Super Tech 5w30, since that would give me the cost benefit and give me the 5w30 viscosity, which is probably what's specified in the bulk of your vehicles anyhow.

My second suggestion would be to use a 10w30 conventional HDEO, dual rated of course. That can usually be obtained at decent prices, and I'd go the five gallon pail route as well. It is going to be thicker than an average PCMO in 5w30 or 10w30. If you're fine with that, no problem.

The third idea would be to use a 0w30 synthetic/synthetic blend HDEO. They are harder to find in the States and they are going to cost more money than the other two options I listed. They may be a better winter choice than a 10w30, but your climate isn't that bad anyhow.

From my point of view, the first two choices I listed would be best at saving money. The last choice would be best if you're concerned about cold starts.

With respect to the lawnmowers, any of those choices would work fine, in my view.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Gebo
On last request, please don't say to use whatever is on sale. I want to know about the advantages and disadvantages of using HDEO in all my stuff (including lawnmowers).


To be honest, your biggest concerns would be viscosity and warranty issues. I'm assuming the only vehicle in your signature that could even potentially still be on warranty would be the 2008 Chevy van. Even if it's still under warranty, it's probably at the tail end of it anyhow. As for catalytic converters, if your vehicles aren't consuming a bunch of oil, it's not a big deal. Even if vehicles consume a bunch of oil, I don't think a low ZDDP oil is going to help a cat run indefinitely, anyhow.

As for viscosity, that's something to consider. If any of your vehicles originally specified a 20 grade, you'll have to include that in your considerations. If you don't mind going out of grade, no problem.

If it were me making the decision, I'd go one of three ways. The first option I'll list isn't HDEO, but it's "close" when it comes to logistics. Our Walmarts (I don't know about the States) sell SN/GF-5 Super Tech at very attractive prices, rivalling HDEO prices, in five gallon pails. So, if I were in your position, I'd consider going with five gallon pails of Super Tech 5w30, since that would give me the cost benefit and give me the 5w30 viscosity, which is probably what's specified in the bulk of your vehicles anyhow.

My second suggestion would be to use a 10w30 conventional HDEO, dual rated of course. That can usually be obtained at decent prices, and I'd go the five gallon pail route as well. It is going to be thicker than an average PCMO in 5w30 or 10w30. If you're fine with that, no problem.

The third idea would be to use a 0w30 synthetic/synthetic blend HDEO. They are harder to find in the States and they are going to cost more money than the other two options I listed. They may be a better winter choice than a 10w30, but your climate isn't that bad anyhow.

From my point of view, the first two choices I listed would be best at saving money. The last choice would be best if you're concerned about cold starts.

With respect to the lawnmowers, any of those choices would work fine, in my view.
I haven't seen 5 gallon pails of anything but kitty litter at Walmarts here in the states. Perhaps it is one thing you guys up there in Canada are NOT getting shafted on.

 

[dnewton3]

OK - this is going to be harsh; a bit of tough love, so to speak.

I don't understand the desire to run HDEO in any of the equipment listed, none of which is diesel, and none of which has an OCI past 5k miles.

Let me turn the tables; why do you suppose that HDEO is capable past a PCMO in those applications you have? What "gain" will you get? You seem to indicate that $5/qrt syn is getting too expensive (and it most certainly is when you're dumping it every 5k miles). So, you want HDEOs; you perceive them to be "better". But you probably cannot even define and describe how to judge "better" in a real sense. Don't use mythology and rhetoric from a sales page; how would you use a used oil analysis to show that syn is "better" than HDEO, but HDEO is "better" than dino PCMO?

Today's dino PCMOs are very capable products, will cost less than HDEO, and do everything you need them to do. (Key in on that word "need", because there is a big distinction between what you "want" and "need".) If you had a mixed fleet with gassers and diesels, then perhaps a 10w30 HDEO would be a good all-around compromise. But you don't have that.

You are correct; using a current blend "S" rated HDEO probably will not hurt your cats, but using HDEO really isn't going to "help" either, espeically given the very limited OCIs you've set.

You mentioned that it's futile for us to try and convince you of longer OCIs. OK - I can accept that. Can you accept the fact that using Kendall synthetics for 5k miles is a total waste of money when Super Tech will do the same job for 1/2 the cost?

Do you have used oil analysis to know how well (or wastefull) your current maintenance plans are doing? Only by having that, can you decide if your desired plan is working.

If you "want" HDEO, then by all means, go get some. But you don't "need" it from what you've told us.


I concur with Garak; head for your nearest W/M and start buying Super Tech oils. They are a very good bargin, have proven to be very capable in used oil analysis, and will serve your "needs" well. If you want, you could stock up on both 5w-20 and 10w30, or use a 5w30 and have it overwith. Yes, even an air-cooled lawn mower will survive just fine with 5w30. It might evaporate a tad quicker, but you can "top off" and put that to bed.


In short, due to your unwillingness to modify your OCI, the only advantage to HDEO is that it's cheaper than syns. But, if you can accept that concept, then you should also be able to wrap your noodle around the fact that a decent PCMO is also just as capable in your OCI plan, for less than the HDEO. If you can grasp one, you should be able to grasp the other. You've been around here for 10 years; this isn't a new concept. I'm not trying to be rude, but I most certainly am challenging you to experience a paradigm shift.



My apologies for the bluntness, but you asked for opinions, and you now have mine.

 

[Jim Allen]

I instituted a plan just like you outline in order to consolidate car, light trucks, gas & diesel, farm tractors and small engines. I decided on Rotella T-5 10W30. The winter issue is a concern, especially more me here in NW Ohio. In the end, everything "works" but it's not optimal in all the equipment but averages out over the entire "fleet."

Frankly, your fleet consists more of engines that will do better on lighter PCMO oils. Were I you, I would focus on a quality 5w30 conventional or a syn blend. I would recommend the Mobil 5000 line as starting point or the Shell PCMO. Unless you engines are completely worn out, a 5W30 would be optimal and you can always go with a HM version.

My Walmart has pails of oil but it's HDEO Rotella or DELO 15W40.

 

[Jeffy_D]

Rotella t5 10w30 synthetic blend, dual rated. Im gonna try it in my car just to say ive tried it and see if its good or not, seems a safe bet. You have a whole fleet to experiment with, try hdeo in a couple vehicles and see if you like the results. And maybe ST in the others as garak suggested. The rev happy integra would be happiest with amzoil hdd 5w30 imho.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I not sure you'll save money running 10w3-0 T5 - it aint cheap. It IS more additised than ILSAC oil and will ABSOLUTELY and inarguably provide a safety margin benefit.
-
the big Q: DO you need the safety margin of high HTHS and more ZDP?
-
I do. I've blow every thing else up trying to run current ILSAC oils. Gotta try something.

 

[Jeffy_D]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I not sure you'll save money running 10w3-0 T5 - it aint cheap. It IS more additised than ILSAC oil and will ABSOLUTELY and inargueably provide a safety margin benefit.
-
the big Q: DO you need the safety margin of high HTHS and more ZDP?
-
I do. I've blow every thing else up trying to run current ILSAC oils. Gotta try something.


16 bucks at Walmart... Everyday, seems very reasonable to me imho

 

[BoiseRob]

Use what ever proper-specified oil is on sale...

 

[Gebo]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
OK - this is going to be harsh; a bit of tough love, so to speak.

I'm a Pastor. If anyone knows tough love....

I don't understand the desire to run HDEO in any of the equipment listed, none of which is diesel, and none of which has an OCI past 5k miles.

I believe it would help clean my engines and give greater protection.

Let me turn the tables; why do you suppose that HDEO is capable past a PCMO in those applications you have? What "gain" will you get? You seem to indicate that $5/qrt syn is getting too expensive (and it most certainly is when you're dumping it every 5k miles). So, you want HDEOs; you perceive them to be "better". But you probably cannot even define and describe how to judge "better" in a real sense. Don't use mythology and rhetoric from a sales page; how would you use a used oil analysis to show that syn is "better" than HDEO, but HDEO is "better" than dino PCMO?

$5/qt is not too expensive. You are correct, I cannot prove syn is better than HDEO is better than PCMO. That's one reason I'm getting opinions.


Today's dino PCMOs are very capable products, will cost less than HDEO, and do everything you need them to do. (Key in on that word "need", because there is a big distinction between what you "want" and "need".) If you had a mixed fleet with gassers and diesels, then perhaps a 10w30 HDEO would be a good all-around compromise. But you don't have that.

I agree. I have done quite a few sermons on "want" vs "need" so I am very familiar with them as well. My stuff, as you can surmise, has probably been taken care of and I need to see at least 300,000 miles out of it.


You are correct; using a current blend "S" rated HDEO probably will not hurt your cats, but using HDEO really isn't going to "help" either, espeically given the very limited OCIs you've set.

You mentioned that it's futile for us to try and convince you of longer OCIs. OK - I can accept that. Can you accept the fact that using Kendall synthetics for 5k miles is a total waste of money when Super Tech will do the same job for 1/2 the cost?

I don't think it's in me to use Super Tech. Remember... baby steps. I have been a loyal Amsoil user for over 25 years. I can't go down so far at once. I had 10K OCI's with their 0W-30.

Do you have used oil analysis to know how well (or wastefull) your current maintenance plans are doing? Only by having that, can you decide if your desired plan is working.

No.

If you "want" HDEO, then by all means, go get some. But you don't "need" it from what you've told us.


I concur with Garak; head for your nearest W/M and start buying Super Tech oils. They are a very good bargin, have proven to be very capable in used oil analysis, and will serve your "needs" well. If you want, you could stock up on both 5w-20 and 10w30, or use a 5w30 and have it overwith. Yes, even an air-cooled lawn mower will survive just fine with 5w30. It might evaporate a tad quicker, but you can "top off" and put that to bed.

I don't think I can wrap my mind around Super Tech. At least not as of this second.


In short, due to your unwillingness to modify your OCI, the only advantage to HDEO is that it's cheaper than syns. But, if you can accept that concept, then you should also be able to wrap your noodle around the fact that a decent PCMO is also just as capable in your OCI plan, for less than the HDEO. If you can grasp one, you should be able to grasp the other. You've been around here for 10 years; this isn't a new concept. I'm not trying to be rude, but I most certainly am challenging you to experience a paradigm shift.

Point taken, I guess I'm having Amsoil withdrawals. Understand? In my mind I may not have completely decided to quit them. I'm looking for a perfect compromise. AND...that will be hard to do. Compromises, I'm talking about.

Hey, I just bought Toyota Red Coolant for $30/gal and mixed it with distilled water at a 60% coolant, 40% distilled water. Does this shed any incite as to my thought process?


My apologies for the bluntness, but you asked for opinions, and you now have mine.
No need to apologize, You are making me think. Thank You.

 

[Bgallagher]

I would buy bulk Supertech 5w30 and use it in everything from cars to lawnmowers to squeeky hinges. Attractive pricing and pretty good oil to be honest.

When I was doing mantainence for a landscaping fleet we used Shell 14w-40 in a 55 gallon drum. Everything from mowers to cars to trucks up to front end loaders. All of the vehicles drove for many miles without any oil related issues.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
I haven't seen 5 gallon pails of anything but kitty litter at Walmarts here in the states. Perhaps it is one thing you guys up there in Canada are NOT getting shafted on.


He he. Well, we have 5 gallon pails of 10w30 and 5w30 Super Tech up here all the time, and regularly very, very cheap, at least by our standards. Perhaps it's because ST is supplied by someone else here, who also happens to routinely supply for industry. The pails are regularly in the $40 range. We do get the Rotella in 5 gallon pails there, too.

Oddly enough, my second last pail of Delvac 15w40 from an Imperial Oil distributor had a U.S. Walmart price tag on it. I'm assuming it's a U.S. Walmart price tag, since it was way too low to be a Canadian tag - yes, I paid more than the Walmart tag.

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I do. I've blow every thing else up trying to run current ILSAC oils. Gotta try something.


Well, at least we helped you out, ARCO!

By the way, isn't there a conventional 10w30 Rotella down there? There is up here.

Originally Posted By: BoiseRob
Use what ever proper-specified oil is on sale...


This is an easy and eminently sensible answer. However, he already nixed that one. Some people don't like to switch brands back and forth just to hit sales. Some people (me included) have an irrational fear of switching all the time or mixing. My solution is to hoard oil. Not everyone can afford that.

Originally Posted By: Gebo
I don't think I can wrap my mind around ST. At least not as of this second.


I understand your reluctance. I wouldn't have even considered it until I started coming here, having no idea who produced it nor any idea how to find out. I had the same misgivings about our Canadian Tire house brand oils. Your Super Tech in the States is quality, as is ours, though they are from different suppliers. They are both quality suppliers, that's all. There may be some used oil analysis of Super Tech products if you wish to peruse them.

In any case, let me get this clear. You're looking for 5000 mile OCIs using OEM filters, right? If that's so, the nice thing is, you're not asking a lot from your oils. Your reluctant, at least at this time, to use Super Tech. You also don't want to just grab whatever is on sale.

Okay. 5w30 is probably the best grade to go with if one were to choose one grade for all your equipment. 5w30 HDEOs are getting rare, but you may find an example or two that's conventional - be aware, though, they'll probably be SL/CI4 or older, if you can even find them.

Aside from that, 5 gallon pails of 10w30 Rotella or Delvac Super are the next best options. They'll be thick, but not atrociously so. They won't break the bank, either.

With respect to the protection issue, if you had older vehicles with flat tappets, I might agree with that. For me, HDEOs are attractive because of the five gallon pail thing. That happens to be more convenient for me. I prefer five gallon pails or five quart jugs. The one gallon jugs that one normally finds HDEOs in are a nuisance, in my view.

 

[dnewton3]

I think we've come to the real root issue here; Gebo is a self-admitted synthetic junkie. Amsoil at 10k mile OCIs, when they will warrant 25k miles (or 3x the OEM OCI) with no UOA required. After prying himself from Amsoil, he's transitioned to Kendall syn.

There is zero reason to think that ST conventional oil will not do everything he needs. He admits that.

Another topic I love to dispell is about cleaning and protection. Here's how reality works in the lube world; used oil analysis show this and so do controlled lab tests that are not biased in predication.

No oil, no matter how heavily loaded with detergents and dispersents, cannot "clean" any "better" than the rate of contaminant production. I've used this example before, and I'll use it again:
Consider an elderly couple living in a nice, but not extravagant home. They have a maid come over once a week to clean. The level of contamination they produce is no greater than the use of the maid once a week; things are safe, healthy and livable. Now, bring over the grandkids; the rate of contamination goes up in that same measured timeframe. Perhaps "more" cleaning is needed; they could use perhaps two or three cleanings per week. But, would the home be any cleaner with only the couple at home, and yet the 3x cleaning factor? No. The RATE of contamination contribution does not change with no extra heads in the home. More maids cannot clean any faster than the rate of which the contamination is produced. They cannot wash extra laundry that does not exist yet, they cannot wipe up spills that don't occur, they will not be able to scrub pots and pans that are not used. In essence, one maid can keep up with the load of one couple; more maids don't make anything "cleaner".
And so it goes for soot/insolubles in oil. No matter how heavily you load the lube with additives, it can only clean as fast as the contamination load is produced. A premium syn or HDEO might have more cleaning capabilities, but those capabilities cannot be utilized any faster than the rate of contamination production. I will stipulate, though, that a neglected engine might be cleaned a bit quicker with a heavy detergent load product, but I would think it's fair to presume that Gebo's fleet has been well cared for, and this condition does not exist in his fleet.

There are two concepts to wrap one's head around. One is RATE of change and the other is TOTAL change.

A decent running engine with fuel injection and no known contamination intrusion (dirt, coolant, etc) has a fairly constant contamination rate from soot, which is the primary contributor to wear after dry starts. The OEM determined that the "normal" OCI of X,xxx miles with a "normal" oil and "normal" filter would suffice for safe, healthy operation. "Cleaning" is achieved by a decent add pack, reasonable filtration, and moderate OCI duration. That's all that is needed. And, not for one second should you decide that there is no "safety margin" in an OEM OCI; I can assure you there is.

And, the same concept can be said for wear protection. Syns do not show any statistically significant wear reduction advantages until the mileage duration is greatly pushed past the point of OEM OCI. We see it time and time and time and time and time again in our UOA seciton. I would challenge anyone to show me proof otherwise.

Conceptually, until a "normal" oil is overwhelmed, there is no advantage to cleaning or wear protection. Sales hype and predicated rhetoric might wish for you to believe otherwise, but data speaks the truth. Until a conventional oil is worn down, it is generally every bit as capable as a syn or HDEO. It's not that syn's or HDEOs do things "better"; the reality is that they are capable of doing them LONGER. And therein lies the caveot; if you don't extend the OCI to a point where the premium product outlasts the normal product, there is no REAL advantage.

So, to heap the safety margin of Synthetic on top of the already existent safety margin of a "normal" conventional PCMO is flat out wastefull. Same goes for HDEO over conventional.

You are running normal OCIs in equipment that is not known for being hard on lubes. Your perception of "better" is in your mind, and not based upon reality.

All that said, you have every right to believe what you want, and do as you choose. Old habits die hard, and letting go of the addiction to premium products can be hard at times.

I should know; I'm a reformed syn junkie from many years ago. OH - I still use them at times, but I no longer believe they are a one-size-fits-all answer for everything. (Same goes for HDEO). There are plenty of good reasons and applications that call for premium products; I faithfully acknowledge that fact. After spending years running preventative maintenance programs, and now doing statistical process quality control, I've realized that facts and data are more important than hype and mythology.

Jim Allen (and I) have mixed fleet op's at home. I use HDEO in many products because I want to reduce the oil inventory, and while not "optimum", my narrowed selections still serve very well and I have used oil analysis to prove it.

But a gasser only fleet, with modern vehicles, and OEM normal OCIs, has no need whatsoever for HDEOs, syns, expensive filters, etc.

If you "must have" a premium product, then why not consider the ST syns? You won't need them, but you'll get some joy from using a syn and still buy at a better price. It's a waste; it's just a smaller waste.

Do it because you want to; not because you need to. And as long as you can admit that is an emotional decision and not a logical one, there is nothing wrong with doing it. We all do things that make no sense to others. Regardless, you should always do what you want; that way you'll sleep well at night.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
No oil, no matter how heavily loaded with detergents and dispersents, cannot "clean" any "better" than the rate of contaminant production.


I think that commonly gets missed. If the engine is clean in the first place, all the HDEOs, engine flushes, and synthetics in the world won't do any extra cleaning. I don't doubt that Gebo's engines are quite clean to begin with. He wasn't pushing his OCIs nor was he using a shoddy product.

Up here, an HDEO can be more attractive from a price standpoint. Down south, you guys get some pretty good deals on regular PCMOs (it's beginning to improve slowly up here). The Rotella synthetics tend to be better priced than a lot of PCMO synthetics, depending upon where one shops. The HDEOs by the pail can usually be had at a reasonable price and the rollbacks can be good. On the other hand, when WM up here rolls back the price of five gallon pails, 5w30 PCMO and 15w40 HDEO are the same price, so it's preferable to grab the appropriately specified lubricant, whatever it may be.

So, if the price is right, the packaging works, the product is approved and suitable (i.e. viscosity), no problem. Any added benefits depend upon a few things. I don't see any engines on Gebo's list that need enhanced ZDDP. So, that's one advantage that really doesn't manifest itself. I'm not up on all the vehicles that call for 5w-20, but it looks like his vehicles all specify 5w30. So, a 10w30 HDEO could be acceptable, but I'd hesitate to go to a 15w40. It's not like my departed Audi, which specified 15w40 through most temperature ranges - 15w40 means HDEO, so that's what I used.

My conclusion would be to use a conventional 10w30 HDEO, but only if it makes financial and logistic sense. For my old F-150, for example, I can benefit from the ZDDP, but it also makes financial and logistic sense. I can get it at a reasonable price (i.e. cheaper than a 5w30 PCMO and a ZDDP additive, though I am leaning towards Defy, but that's another matter), and the odd sump size (6 quarts) makes a 5 gallon pail handier than messing with jugs plus quarts, or part jugs.

For my G - not so much. As you've already stated, there is no one size fits all answer.

@Gebo: One thing to remember is not to sweat the small stuff. You have reservations about Super Tech. Back in the 1980s, I ran a taxi fleet for millions of combined miles. The OCI was 6000 miles on Quaker State 10w30 with Wix filters. That was back in the day when oils weren't as good as they are now. In any relatively modern engine, I'd use modern Super Tech in a heartbeat before I'd use Quaker State blended to thirty year old, outdated, superseded oil specifications.

No for the $64000 question: Why do you not see Super Tech oils in my signature? If I find a Super Tech 10w30 HDEO for my old truck, I'll buy the first pail I see.

 

[Gebo]

I believe I can see a "deliverance" ministry developing here. dnewton3, thanks!

 

[dnewton3]

No, thank you for being open minded.

And don't take my word for it; rather, convince yourself. That's what I had to do. There's nothing wrong with asking for and taking advice, but to convince oneself, it often takes first hand experience. Like I said, I was formerly a syn junkie, and I had to educate myself and have a true paradigm shift in life before I realized the pros and cons of premium products (not just lubes and filters, but in all aspects of life).

Get several used oil analysis in your current pattern (it will take time; be patient). Also, pull a valve cover or two a few times and take pictures. Then, swap oils and repeat the process. I think you'll find that, while premium products certainly are great products and have their good applications, they are not needed for normal situations. And everything you've told us so far is that you're "normal" in your use and maintenance needs.

Don't let the sales hype and myth/rhetoric convince you. Don't let me convince you. Convince yourself. But do so with an analytical approach and allow the data/evidence do the talking. I'm not going to prove it to you. I'm challenging you to prove it to yourself. You can have just as much fun doing your own experiments at home. But be careful; establish a solid baseline before changing variables, and only change one variable at a time, and allow that variable to stabilize before moving to the next. Use your noodle and think your way through this.

 

[Garak]

Gebo, in line with what Dave wrote, here's a retelling of a conversation I had with my dad years ago. He was a very old school mechanic, but with some new ideas, as you'll see in the end.

With our 6000 mile taxi OCIs on conventional, I had suggested to him we switch over to Mobil 1 (basically the only synthetic available at the time). He asked why, especially considering the huge price differential at the time. I said it will protect the engine better. He responded by asking me to point out one lube related failure in our fleet use and that we were routinely getting hundreds of thousands of miles on engines anyhow. Of course, I could not point out an example or counter that. I said we could extend the intervals. He pointed out that we go plenty long already (it's good to get under the cabs once in a while for a look, and an oil change is a good excuse), synthetics were five times the cost (at the time), and we would need to go 30000 miles to make it pay.

Back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, I had an old mid-size LTD. I was using 10w30 and 5w30 Castrol GTX at the time. It had about 300000 miles on it, having been a taxi before. He was doing an oil change on his 6.2 L diesel with his winter fill of Esso XD-3 10w30 HDEO. I thought that might be a good match for my engine and made the mistake of saying so. He asked why I would want to put that thick garbage (he was more colourful than that, actually) in my gasser. Of course, I answered with the protection argument. He asked what was wrong with my GTX and the previous QS - after all, they got the engine to very high mileage.

He was doing mechanics since the late 1940s, but he was not the guy to whom you would suggest 20w-50 in anything, or HDEO in a gasser, or straight weights for anything except air compressors.

I used a lot of 15w40 HDEO in my F-150 before I rebuilt it. It was sludged to high heaven and leaked like a sieve. That's why I used it - I had problems to address. I bet your engines are clean as a whistle, considering your maintenance habits.

Another suggestion, if you don't want to go the ST route or hunting for sales (which I don't like either) is figure out what brand you like - you like the name, the bottle, its manufacturer, its reputation, whatever - and wait until it's on sale at your favourite retailer and buy a bunch, if you can store it. By the time you're just about out, it'll be on special again. That's assuming you have storage space.

I maintain that 10w30 HDEO would still work, but would be a second choice to an appropriate PCMO. Castrol GTX, Mobil Super, Pennzoil Conventional, Quaker State Conventional, Valvoline, Havoline, and yes, even Super Tech, are all fine options.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: Jeffy_D
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I not sure you'll save money running 10w3-0 T5 - it aint cheap. ... ... ... .


16 bucks at Walmart... Everyday, seems very reasonable to me imho
Isnt that 16 bucks a GALLON? That's 4 bucks a qt. I havent seen Triple protect or T5 in 5qt jugs or 5gal pails (only 15w40 Fleet) Does your store have it?

 

[roadrunner1]

I'm in the midwest, we have Menards along with many farm/impliment dealers who stock HDEO 10w30. Syn. blend and dino is available here, although I am aware that this might not be the case across the rest of North America.