Pennzoil Ultra vs. HDEO in Lexus

[LScowboy]

currently using Pennzoil Ultra with a FRAM Ultra (they have to match, y'know - lol) on my '96 Lexus LS400 (125k miles) - OCI about 10k-12k mostly highway miles - would I see any benefit from switching to a 10W-30 HDEO? - if so, what benefits and what is the best HDEO that comes in a 10W-30 or a 5W-30 (it never gets below 15°F in central Alabama) - not too worried about the price of the HDEO, I usually find a closeout or make a deal with an oil distributor.

 

[RiceCake]

Switching to an HDEO? No. A synthetic HDEO would only ever be as good as the PU you're using, plus any HDEO you find there will be 10W-30. 5W-30 is preferable (there's no reason not to use it, and enjoy the slightly better flow characteristics when cold (cold meaning off; not winter).

 

[NHGUY]

Whats above ULTRA,SuperDuper??

 

[toneydoc]

I live in North AL but tend to my daughters car who happens to live in Birmingham. Just changed her oil Friday with Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 and Wix oil filter. The Ultra is a great oil for that interval and the HDEO will likely not have any benefits over your present oil and filter selection

 

[Donald]

Continue with PU.

 

[LScowboy]

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Switching to an HDEO? No. A synthetic HDEO would only ever be as good as the PU you're using, plus any HDEO you find there will be 10W-30. 5W-30 is preferable (there's no reason not to use it, and enjoy the slightly better flow characteristics when cold (cold meaning off; not winter).


good cold flow characteristics on startup have to be counter-balanced with the fact that a thicker oil adheres better to engine parts once the oil has drained back to the pan, providing some critical lubrication on startup

which of these two opposing factors results in more startup wear would be a great research project!

 

[RiceCake]

Originally Posted By: LScowboy
good cold flow characteristics on startup have to be counter-balanced with the fact that a thicker oil adheres better to engine parts once the oil has drained back to the pan


If oil has drained back to the pan it won't "adhere" to anything. And if its draining back, it means the engine is warm, and the oil will universally be hot, thus thin.

In other words: you have no idea what you're talking about if you're thinking a 10W-30 sticks better to engine parts then a 5W-30. A 5W-30 will pump back into the cold engine easier and thus afford faster, better lubrication, and thats what you want.

 

[dnewton3]

How about we ask LScowboy to run some experiements, and post the results, rather than continue in the (nearly unlimited) supposition.

Seriously ... want to know which is "better"? Then run some testing. You'll need to run about 60 UOAs (30 of each option) to get a good micro-analysis view of the data, so that you can establish ranges and trends and sigmas. That is the ONLY way to know which is TRULY "better" in a specific situation. You must test them with minimal input changes, long enough that you can see fair values for normal variance. Even at 5k miles per UOA, that would take you about 300k miles to determine a winner between the two.

Don't have enough time and money for that? Then don't worry about it. There is another less expensive option. You can run some UOAs and look at the data versus the macro-market response. You cannot see which is "better" in this regard, but you can see if they are "normal" or not. Any product that returns "normal" results means it's as good as any other "normal" product. Outputs are what matter more than inputs.


But I'll cut to the chase for you.
Given your stated use (10-12k miles of mostly highway miles) in a very moderate temp environment, with an engine that is known for excellent longevity, I'd say that you don't need either the PU or the HDEO. Get a good quality conventional lube and run 10k miles and don't look back. Ditch the uber expensive filters too; you won't need them for 10k miles as any "normal" filter will do just fine.

Think I'm wrong? Then why not prove it? Prove it with data. Run some UOAs with some different set-ups, manipulating only one variable at a time.

Yes - I'm taunting you in a friendly manner. I'm not picking on you, but rather tossing down the gauntlet so as to raise the bar. I'm trying to get you to add to the knowledge base here, rather than suckle at the tit of mythology and rhetoric. Consider it a helpful challenge to awaken from the oil slumber.

 

[LScowboy]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Ditch the uber expensive filters too; you won't need them for 10k miles as any "normal" filter will do just fine.


$8 and change for a Fram Ultra, once a year, is just not expensive to me - you see, I got that kinda dough! - lol

and the $3/quart I recently picked up 24 quarts of Pennzoil Ultra for, well now we are really shelling out the bucks, baby!

The main reason I like a high end oil and filter is, that sometimes life gets in the way, and that planned oil change at 8 or 10K, ends up slipping to 15K and with the good stuff in there, I am still in "high cotton", as we say in Alabama

 

[dnewton3]

I realize that cost is a relative term to folks; some just have money to burn.

But, allow me to burst your frothy bubbles ...

I ran 10k miles on lowly ST dino oil and a PC filter; got stellar UOA results with wear rates well below average. I am now running out to 15k miles for another UOA verification. Not a drop of syn in sight and only a normal filter. See this: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2827445&page=1


Please take the time to read the information in my normalcy article. And purhcase/read SAE 2007-01-4133. You are presuming things that are not true.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/
http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/


Unless I've read your post incorrectly, it is my impression that you presume the PU/FU combo gives you some kind of extra insurance, in case you blow past an intended OCI. But what you fail to realize is that "normal" products are WAY more capable than you think, and already represent a fine reserve capacity for thsoe "oops" moments. Anything you pay for over that is unrealized potential, and that is a waste. If the "normal" products can safely go to 15k miles (and they clearly can), then why pay for "extra" protection you'll never need?


Like I said; if you think I'm wrong, then prove it! Run some testing on your own; do some experimentation. Control your inputs and variables. Get some UOAs. Why not add to the data base rather than espouse rhetoric like a resounding gong? I cannot assure you that you'll have the same success that I have, but until you try it, you have zero ability to claim any success or failure. I don't deny that the PU/FU combo is capable, but what you presume is that some "lesser" alternative is not capable, and that is completely untrue. I can say things with certainty; I run controlled experiments and back up my claims with data and facts and studies. If you want to convince me otherwise, then run some controlled trials and post up the results. And again, this is a friendly taunt, not an adversarial poke. I ask people to prove what they claim, and that applies to myself as well. We have WAY too much mythology and rhetoric here already. I ask that folks back up what they claim with real world, hard core proof and not marketying spoils.


Enjoy your cotton, while I enjoy the savings.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I ran 10k miles on lowly ST dino oil and a PC filter; got stellar UOA results with wear rates well below average. I am now running out to 15k miles for another UOA verification. Not a drop of syn in sight and only a normal filter. See this: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2827445&page=1

Dave, pls suggest which lowly dino oil should he use in the '96 Lexus LS400 (125k miles) ?
Is is to be a 10W-30 or 5W-30 or 5W-20 ? thanks!

 

[dnewton3]

Whatever grade it's spec'd for would be a great place to start.

 

[LScowboy]

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
A 5W-30 will pump back into the cold engine easier and thus afford faster, better lubrication, and thats what you want.


then using that logic, why not run 0W-30 rather than 5W-30 ?

 

[LScowboy]

Originally Posted By: toneydoc
I live in North AL but tend to my daughters car who happens to live in Birmingham. Just changed her oil Friday with Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 and Wix oil filter. The Ultra is a great oil for that interval and the HDEO will likely not have any benefits over your present oil and filter selection

the more I see the inside of Wix filters, the better I am liking them, especially their new XP line - I was a religious OCOD devotee for decades, but lately realizing there are better built filters out there, though I never had any performance issue with the OCOD

when I was growing up, you bought an orange Fram filter and some Castrol GTX or some Rotella T and you had the best in your cart and you were all done shoppin!

people who bought Mobil 1 were weird or else lived in Alaska or North Dakota or somewhere really cold - lol

 

[RiceCake]

Originally Posted By: LScowboy
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
A 5W-30 will pump back into the cold engine easier and thus afford faster, better lubrication, and thats what you want.


then using that logic, why not run 0W-30 rather than 5W-30 ?


Cost. A 0W-30 needs to be a quality synthetic (or at least a rugged semi-synthetic) to match those parameters.

That, and, its generally a rather obscure oil weight.

I use 0W-30 but I buy Delvac Elite 222 for it, because I live in Canada. In other parts of the country the added cost of a 0W-30 more then likely offsets the benefits of it.

If you can get 0W-30 at 5W-30 prices? Absolutely.

 

[BillyTheKid]

Short answer you can run either or and I will bet you will have no negative impact. I like running an HDEO every once in a while in my older vehicles.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: LScowboy
Originally Posted By: toneydoc
I live in North AL but tend to my daughters car who happens to live in Birmingham. Just changed her oil Friday with Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 and Wix oil filter. The Ultra is a great oil for that interval and the HDEO will likely not have any benefits over your present oil and filter selection

the more I see the inside of Wix filters, the better I am liking them, especially their new XP line - I was a religious OCOD devotee for decades, but lately realizing there are better built filters out there, though I never had any performance issue with the OCOD

when I was growing up, you bought an orange Fram filter and some Castrol GTX or some Rotella T and you had the best in your cart and you were all done shoppin!

people who bought Mobil 1 were weird or else lived in Alaska or North Dakota or somewhere really cold - lol


Ha funny post.

The Wix are sure built mighty sturdy but I've had drain back issues with them, YMMV.

 

[LScowboy]

Originally Posted By: toneydoc
I live in North AL but tend to my daughters car who happens to live in Birmingham. Just changed her oil Friday with Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 and Wix oil filter. The Ultra is a great oil for that interval and the HDEO will likely not have any benefits over your present oil and filter selection

5W-20 makes me nervous in Alabama where temperatures can sometimes reach 105°F

 

[dnewton3]

Your fear is unwarranted. Thin grades survive just fine in your area.

 

[LScowboy]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Your fear is unwarranted. Thin grades survive just fine in your area.



so how would you make the intelligent choice in synthetics between the grades of 5W-20, 5W-30, 0W-20, and 0W-30 if you live in a place that swings from 15F to 105F temperatures throughout the year for a 1year/12,000 mile OCI on an engine in good shape?

and please, no dnewton3 "it doesn't matter" non-answers - lol