HD Shotgun?

[OVERKILL]

So in other words to follow the law, if someone where to break in your house while you were there. You have to go to hand to hand, while unlocking the safe. Ridiculous.

Almost, that if someone shot an intruder, the burden might be placed on you for not following gun laws. Canada statehood would fix all that.

Yeah, so most folks that consider the self defence angle go with something mag fed (for the reasons I've mentioned) and have their safe located close to where they sleep for quick access.

 

[burbguy82]

Yeah, so most folks that consider the self defence angle go with something mag fed (for the reasons I've mentioned) and have their safe located close to where they sleep for quick access.

 

[ATex7239]

I posted some videos earlier that show the penetration, the one with the humanoid ballistics gel models is most informative as to the range where birdshot is effective.

Thanks. I’ll check it out for sure. If a round/shot can penetrate to 12 to 18 inches per the FBI standard protocol then it should be considered good to go.

 

[shortyb]

I’m glad your friend bought the gun, @demarpaint. It’s a good choice. Now, as with any defensive weapon, he needs to shoot it. A lot. To become so comfortable with handling and loading it that he can do it in his sleep, because, odds are, he might have to.

Excellent advice. Also, if he is using it primarily for HD, he needs to practice with it (unloaded of course. Did I say unloaded? Yeah, make sure it's unloaded) in the environment it will used in, ie; the home. Walk around with the weapon, making note of areas that provide good cover, areas it could be compromised, and generally familiarizing his response. Think about what is beyond his theoretical target. Where are family members? Create and practice a plan with that family. Too many times home defense situations have taken a bad turn when someone gets a HD weapon and thinks they can just grab it and go when things go sideways.

 

[Astro14]

Excellent advice. Also, if he is using it primarily for HD, he needs to practice with it (unloaded of course. Did I say unloaded? Yeah, make sure it's unloaded) in the environment it will used in, ie; the home. Walk around with the weapon, making note of areas that provide good cover, areas it could be compromised, and generally familiarizing his response. Think about what is beyond his theoretical target. Where are family members? Create and practice a plan with that family. Too many times home defense situations have taken a bad turn when someone gets a HD weapon and thinks they can just grab it and go when things go sideways.

I believe it was Archilocus who said, in 650 BC, “We don’t rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training.”

He was right. I’ve seen it so many times.

Many live with the fantasy that they will rise to their expectations, rise to the occasion, and it is just that - fantasy.

 

[Pew]

So in other words to follow the law, if someone where to break in your house while you were there. You have to go to hand to hand, while unlocking the safe. Ridiculous.

Almost, that if someone shot an intruder, the burden might be placed on you for not following gun laws. Canada statehood would fix all that.

Whoever made that rule must think the matrix scene of Neo fighting Agent Smith is real and doable.

 

[ATex7239]

This guy does a pretty good job showing the patterning and behaviour of birdshot with the various chokes, and at various distances, however his ballistic gel test doesn't compare well to the ballistic dummies used in other tests, which include organs and bones (like the video I shared earlier).


My takeaway is that there's a lot of risk in using birdshot. You could be close enough that a centre mass shot doesn't spread enough to hit anything like the neck or eyes and yet not close enough for adequate penetration to hit anything vital. You could be far enough away that the pattern is wide, but still manage to not hit the eyes, and now the guy is just pissed off and bleeding. Add things like a winter coat, glasses, hat, mask...etc and there's a very real possibility you have a very alive perp who could return fire and kill you. If he's on something like meth or crack, it's quite likely he'll just keep coming unless you manage to remove his eyeballs, which there is no guarantee of with the wide pattern approach.

Good video. However it does confirm the main argument against bird and that is the lack of penetration. It doesn’t technically meet the minimum requirement. As I said though I think it’s clearly devastating anyways.

 

[football]

Why is bird shot not enough?

These topics are always a fun topic. Lots of back and forth. Lots of, "but I shot some stuff and it looked pretty devastating."

Or, I'm gonna shoot him in the face and blow out his eyes and teeth. Sure. Yeah. A moving target. Probably in pitch black darkness. A target 5 inches across and your gun is only going to pattern 1"-2" inches at self defense distances. Shot guns do not pattern 12" spread at across the room distances. Your lucky to get 3". Nothing more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_cannibal_attack
This article right here. And there are thousands more just like it. Every day. This stuff happens DAILY. All across the country. As a cop, I saw very similar stuff WEEKLY. This guy was eating the face off a guy. The cop shot him center mass with a .40 caliber hollow point. The guy growled at the cop and went back to eating the guy. The cops had to shoot him 3 more times to get him to stop eating the guy.

Birdshot (#8) cannot and will not reach vital organs. Cannot and will not reach to central nervous system damage. The cop would have had to shoot this guy 20+ times with birdshot to have any effect.

These alcohol or drug infected zombies are out there. In droves. Pain compliance (bird shot) will not stop them. Period.

 

[billt460]

.......... The cop would have had to shoot this guy 20+ times with birdshot to have any effect.......

It's starting to get a little deep.

 

[LDB]

I don't think any shotgun looks better than that Marine Magnum. But I don't know that it could do 13+1 either. So looks or capacity/capability.

 

[Ranger83]

I’m glad your friend bought the gun, @demarpaint. It’s a good choice. Now, as with any defensive weapon, he needs to shoot it. A lot. To become so comfortable with handling and loading it that he can do it in his sleep, because, odds are, he might have to.

And while malfunction drills are a significant portion of military training, most homeowner training has little or no practice when things go wrong. We bought five dummy rounds to practice loading, cycling, and clearing. Brownells, Lyman, Fiocchi and others make “proving rounds.”

For the rest of the discussion - way too much “tacticool” fantasy and myth for me.///

No lie, GI.

 

[Ranger83]

///Another example of this design idea is the M1 Garand. Although a fine rifle, it was designed with a premise of a "soldier's gun" at the time, that was a slender, and sleek piece, with no protusions, such as a "ugly detachable box" magazine. One of the reasons for this, other than the top brass, had an idea of what a soldiers rifle should "look" like......was the rifles ability to be carried...in a scabbard, ON HORSEBACK. It was realized that a detachable box was a better design, and the look of the gun was partially secondary......the genesis of the M14.///

Citation needed.

 

[Ranger83]

FWIW, before spending $1,500 on the latest nine shot 590A1 SPX with bayonet lug (just in case), and a bandoleer (just in case) spend $100 or so on a door reinforcement kit. There are many, here’s the first to pop up.

https://armorconcepts.com/products/door-armor-single-door-security-kit-max-mini-or-plus

Get some motion-activated lights. Rose bushes. A dog.

We don’t open the door at night. We address any inquiries from a window above and behind the entry.

 

[billt460]

With all this talk about firearms self defense in the home, what honestly scares me the most, are the all but certain legal repercussions that result afterward.

Even if you are involved in a justifiable self defense shooting, and are not charged with anything, you can still be on the receiving end of a massive wrongful death civil suit, that you could very well lose.... Depending on the political climate where you reside.

Even if you beat everything that could be thrown against you in court, you could easily end up spending well into 5 digits in legal fees. I'm seriously looking into some of these so called, "self defense insurance policies", that kick in if you find yourself in civil court, because you justifiably dusted some no good.

I'm 72 years old..... Far too old to have to go back to selling door to door. Only because I had to shell out a ridiculously huge sum for having to defend myself. This is not that rare of an occurrence in today's crazy world, where in some social climates, the perp automatically becomes the, "victim".

 

[demarpaint]

With all this talk about firearms self defense in the home, what honestly scares me the most, are the all but certain legal repercussions that result afterward.

Even if you are involved in a justifiable self defense shooting, and are not charged with anything, you can still be on the receiving end of a massive wrongful death civil suit, that you could very well lose.... Depending on the political climate where you reside.

Even if you beat everything that could be thrown against you in court, you could easily end up spending well into 5 digits in legal fees. I'm seriously looking into some of these so called, "self defense insurance policies", that kick in if you find yourself in civil court, because you justifiably dusted some no good.

I'm 72 years old..... Far too old to have to go back to selling door to door. Only because I had to shell out a ridiculously huge sum for having to defend myself. This is not that rare of an occurrence in today's crazy world, where in some social climates, the perp automatically becomes the, "victim".

That is a sad fact of life, especially if you live in a state like NY, CA, MA, NJ, etc. or the like. A consideration for sure. Imagine using a load that is intended to stop an attacker and not kill him, and it works as intended. You could be sued for everything you have anyway. The same can be said for lethal force. Other than surviving a home invasion it could end up being financially devastating, no matter how right you were. Many people went broke doing the right thing.

 

[ChrisD46]

My only words of caution to the above would be, if you're going to be running the above loads through a semi auto shotgun, make sure they will properly cycle. Just like any semi auto handgun, I would run at least a full flat of shells, (250), through it to be certain of its function.

Especially so if the gun is new.... Followed by a good through cleaning and lube job.

Lately , the standard for semi - auto shotguns which cycle bird shot / low brass loads reliably well is the Beretta 1301 /1301 (Mod 2) . The Beretta A300 is also considered reliable with low brass birdshot shells .

 

[ChrisD46]

That is a sad fact of life, especially if you live in a state like NY, CA, MA, NJ, etc. or the like. A consideration for sure. Imagine using a load that is intended to stop an attacker and not kill him, and it works as intended. You could be sued for everything you have anyway. The same can be said for lethal force. Other than surviving a home invasion it could end up being financially devastating, no matter how right you were. Many people went broke doing the right thing.

Study your state’s right to self defense laws and error on the side of making sure you are still alive in the event of a armed attack against you . That plus possible self defense insurance (for cenceiled carry) are best advice .

 

[demarpaint]

Study your state’s right to self defense laws and error on the side of making sure you are still alive in the event of a armed attack against you . That plus possible self defense insurance (for cenceiled carry) are best advice .

NY is right up there with CA for not being a gun friendly state. My buddy that bought that gun has that policy, he is former LE.

 

[billt460]

Lately , the standard for semi - auto shotguns which cycle bird shot / low brass loads reliably well is the Beretta 1301 /1301 (Mod 2) . The Beretta A300 is also considered reliable with low brass birdshot shells .

Beretta has always had very good cycling autoloaders with the lower powered clay target loads. This is because their gas systems are more or less designed around it.

Over the years Beretta has sold boxcar loads of semi automatic Trap Guns for the clay target sports. The Beretta 303, A390, as well as several others, have all seen extensive use in the clay target games.

Benelli on the other hand, has had difficulty with the gas system in their M-4 design, digesting many of the lower powered loads. Mostly because it was designed primarily as a combat shotgun. Having the action designed around heavy buckshot and slugs the military uses.

With that said, many of the inertia operated Benelli's do very well with the lower powered loads.

Many, (but not all), M-4 Benelli's can hang up with the lower powered clay loads. A guy at our club shoots a M-4, and it took several flats of shells before it, "wore in" enough, to reliably use it for doubles..... And he was pretty good at doubles with it.

 

[Ranger83]

MSRP $1,376.



And if a 7 or 8 round tube isn’t enough to defend your home from intruders: 590 magazine fed.

https://www.mossberg.com/590rm-mag-fed-50213.html