HD Shotgun?

[ATex7239]

Musts for me: Short barrel. Short stock. On board light. Sling. Magazine tube all the way to the barrel so you have as many rounds as you can.

Negotiable: This brand vs that. Whatever. If it works I’ll run it. 20 vs 12 vs 410. Whatever. Shotguns are devastating either way. Bigger is better though. Buck vs slug vs bird. Bigger is always better. But at hallway distance it will just be one big wad of metal anyways. Buck might as well be a big slug at 10 feet.

 

[edhackett]

I wouldn’t bet my life on the idea that my lethal force encounter will be compliant with FBI average statistics.

If that were a good idea, then cops would only need to carry three rounds. Not a full magazine and certainly not two spare magazines, after all their encounters would be just as likely to fall into “average” FBI statistics on lethal force.

Exactly. "Average" is just a mathematical construct. In reality the "average" of anything doesn't exist.

Ed

 

[ChrisD46]

This brings back interesting debates I participated in several times over the years. The answer is it depends. Inside my home the longest distance would be under 20', 20 yards is a totally different story. As you go further it's another story again. So for 20 feet my bet is #8 bird shot could be all you need. This turned out to be a very interesting and informative thread.

I’ve seen YouTube demonstrations showing #8 bird shot being good to about 15’ (5 yards) but after that is when the pattern starts to spread .

 

[demarpaint]

I’ve seen YouTube demonstrations showing #8 bird shot being good to about 15’ (5 yards) but after that is when the pattern starts to spread .

Yes, I've seen quite a few too. In any event @ 20' imo it could be a very bad day for the person receiving that load.

 

[billt460]

In all my years I've fired tens of thousands of Trap loads. Most were either 1-1/8 ounce of #7-1/2's or #8's, coming out the muzzle at 1,200 - 1,250 FPS through a Full, or Improved Modified choke. I keep hearing how birdshot should NEVER be used for self defense.

I totally disagree, because anyone who takes 1-1/8 ounce of lead in the face and chest, in the interior distance of the average home, (25 feet or less), is going to immediately stop what they're doing, or thinking of doing. Especially if you have have another 5 or 7 rounds behind it.

 

[billt460]

My only words of caution to the above would be, if you're going to be running the above loads through a semi auto shotgun, make sure they will properly cycle. Just like any semi auto handgun, I would run at least a full flat of shells, (250), through it to be certain of its function.

Especially so if the gun is new.... Followed by a good through cleaning and lube job.

 

[4WD]

In all my years I've fired tens of thousands of Trap loads. Most were either 1-1/8 ounce of #7-1/2's or #8's, coming out the muzzle at 1,200 - 1,250 FPS through a Full, or Improved Modified choke. I keep hearing how birdshot should NEVER be used for self defense.

I totally disagree, because anyone who takes 1-1/8 ounce of lead in the face and chest, in the interior distance of the average home, (25 feet or less), is going to immediately stop what they're doing, or thinking of doing. Especially if you have have another 5 or 7 rounds behind it.

In one of these past debates - someone posted a CSI picture of a torso after a close hit with birdshot (large hole) …
I could not find it - but not likely to post anyway …

 

[demarpaint]

Update: My buddy bought the 590A1 50768 yesterday along with some 00 Buckshot and Slugs to fire at the range. It's a beast. I did tell him that using it for a trap gun is going to take some thought and modifications. I've been reading up on that as well. I have a feeling if the trap bug bites he'll either buy another shotgun or be asking a lot of questions on how to make his 590A1 handle both jobs.

 

[burbguy82]

Any cartridge inside the firearm. So you can't have a mag inserted, and you can't have anything in the tube or integrated mag and you can't have a cartridge in the chamber for a single shot.

So, if you had an SKS, you could have a stripper clip beside it and load it rather quickly, but a pump shotgun, you'd need to load it, whereas with a mag fed shotgun, since you can store mags loaded, you can just shove a mag in it.

Oh, and this is all predicated on the use of a gun safe. If you are just using a "cabinet" (locker or something not classified as a safe, IE a storage cabinet with a glass front) the ammo must be locked up and stored separately. On the other hand, if you use a safe, the ammo doesn't need to be locked up as long as the firearm(s) is/are in the safe.

So in other words to follow the law, if someone where to break in your house while you were there. You have to go to hand to hand, while unlocking the safe. Ridiculous.

Almost, that if someone shot an intruder, the burden might be placed on you for not following gun laws. Canada statehood would fix all that.

 

[4WD]

Any cartridge inside the firearm. So you can't have a mag inserted, and you can't have anything in the tube or integrated mag and you can't have a cartridge in the chamber for a single shot.

So, if you had an SKS, you could have a stripper clip beside it and load it rather quickly, but a pump shotgun, you'd need to load it, whereas with a mag fed shotgun, since you can store mags loaded, you can just shove a mag in it.

Oh, and this is all predicated on the use of a gun safe. If you are just using a "cabinet" (locker or something not classified as a safe, IE a storage cabinet with a glass front) the ammo must be locked up and stored separately. On the other hand, if you use a safe, the ammo doesn't need to be locked up as long as the firearm(s) is/are in the safe.

Well, if a guy wore a mask during Covid - exemptions are applicable
Without objection - exemption granted !

 

[ATex7239]

I totally disagree, because anyone who takes 1-1/8 ounce of lead in the face and chest, in the interior distance of the average home, (25 feet or less), is going to immediately stop what they're doing, or thinking of doing. Especially if you have have another 5 or 7 rounds behind it.

Agreed. Anyone who has patterned their shotgun properly with their HD load of choice at varying distances would know this. But I think most people don’t do that. I like buck shot. But at living room distance it is all just a big clump of metal going really fast in a small diameter circle. Even without a choke. It’s all devastating.

Now devils advocate, the don’t use bird shot folks are generally referring to the lack of penetration with bird shot. Someone on drugs might not feel pain or emotion so hitting vital internals to shut them down is crucial. I don’t generally see it that way cause I have seen what a shotgun can do to flesh. But I will not say the lack of penetration criticism has no merit.

 

[4WD]

Agreed. Anyone who has patterned their shotgun properly with their HD load of choice at varying distances would know this. But I think most people don’t do that. I like buck shot. But at living room distance it is all just a big clump of metal going really fast in a small diameter circle. Even without a choke. It’s all devastating.

Now devils advocate, the don’t use bird shot folks are generally referring to the lack of penetration with bird shot. Someone on drugs might not feel pain or emotion so hitting vital internals to shut them down is crucial. I don’t generally see it that way cause I have seen what a shotgun can do to flesh. But I will not say the lack of penetration criticism has no merit.

That’s where it’s important to draw a line on “threat” … if I go outside and someone is stealing my beloved Jeep - will say head west bcs it’s only half full.
But if that scum comes through a door … Well, you know

 

[ATex7239]

That’s where it’s important to draw a line on “threat” … if I go outside and someone is stealing my beloved Jeep - will say head west bcs it’s only half full.
But if that scum comes through a door … Well, you know

That is situational and deals with the morality and legality prior to pulling the trigger. Different topic I believe. I am referring to physical effects and damage after the trigger is pulled.

 

[billt460]

My Mossberg 590-A1 next to my Remington 870 Police Stainless Marine. I can't remember if the Mossberg holds one or two more.

 

[burbguy82]

My Mossberg 590-A1 next to my Remington 870 Police Stainless Marine. I can't remember if the Mossberg holds one or two more.


View attachment 258933

love the marine magnum. Remington did a better job than Mossberg in the finish of that gun.

 

[Astro14]

I believe this is the photo you're thinking of. (NOTE: If the mods feel it is too graphic, I apologise, and go ahead and remove it).

Yeah, while illustrative, it’s graphic.

 

[billt460]

The bottom gun in the top photo is a plain Jane Mossberg 500 that came with 2 barrels. An 18" cylinder bore, and an interchangeable 28" vented rib barrel with a modified choke. I keep it configured for self defense with the cylinder barrel.

These Mossberg "Combo Guns" were a very good buy back around ten or fifteen years ago, I think I paid under $200.00 for it new, with both barrels, out the door at Big 5, or one of those chain sporting goods outfits.

The bottom 2 are Rock Island Armory M-5's. One is Parkerized, and the other is Electroless Nickel finished. These guns were built in the Philippines on a copy of the old High Standard Flite King pump, that was so popular in the 60's. They were sold under the Ted Williams (Sears) brand, and at the old Western Auto stores. It was a very solid all steel action, that was built like a Mack truck.

The only problem was they really greased them up good for the slow boat ride over here. The Parkerized one still has oil stains on the stock.... Better than rust however.

 

[Astro14]

I’m glad your friend bought the gun, @demarpaint. It’s a good choice. Now, as with any defensive weapon, he needs to shoot it. A lot. To become so comfortable with handling and loading it that he can do it in his sleep, because, odds are, he might have to.

For the rest of the discussion - way too much “tacticool” fantasy and myth for me.

“Devastating” “taking out eyes, teeth, and in almost every inch of skin” “eyes have been eliminated, teeth broken, and hot pellets under a great portion of their epidermis.” “spread and spray of shot” “shoot from the hip with short barrel”.

Yeah - no need to aim, the magic spread will take care of everything, and malicious wounding will teach that bad guy a lesson.

 

[demarpaint]

I’m glad your friend bought the gun, @demarpaint. It’s a good choice. Now, as with any defensive weapon, he needs to shoot it. A lot. To become so comfortable with handling and loading it that he can do it in his sleep, because, odds are, he might have to.

For the rest of the discussion - way too much “tacticool” fantasy and myth for me.

“Devastating” “taking out eyes, teeth, and in almost every inch of skin” “eyes have been eliminated, teeth broken, and hot pellets under a great portion of their epidermis.” “spread and spray of shot” “shoot from the hip with short barrel”.

Yeah - no need to aim, the magic spread will take care of everything, and malicious wounding will teach that bad guy a lesson.

Good points. Just like the Martial Arts, it takes a lot of training to become proficient. Especially when it comes time for the rubber to meet the road. He is quite proficient with a handgun, the shotgun will be just like learning a new fighting art. Knowing basics and safety is a big plus and step in the right direction.

 

[OVERKILL]

Agreed. Anyone who has patterned their shotgun properly with their HD load of choice at varying distances would know this. But I think most people don’t do that. I like buck shot. But at living room distance it is all just a big clump of metal going really fast in a small diameter circle. Even without a choke. It’s all devastating.

Now devils advocate, the don’t use bird shot folks are generally referring to the lack of penetration with bird shot. Someone on drugs might not feel pain or emotion so hitting vital internals to shut them down is crucial. I don’t generally see it that way cause I have seen what a shotgun can do to flesh. But I will not say the lack of penetration criticism has no merit.

I posted some videos earlier that show the penetration, the one with the humanoid ballistics gel models is most informative as to the range where birdshot is effective.