Havoline 5w20, 4294mi, 2001 Honda Civic 1.7L V4

[Storm897]

code:

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Lab used: Blackstone Butler Butler

Oil Brand Castrol GTX Valvoline Havoline

Oil Visc 5w20 5w20 5w20

Miles on oil 4,230 4,376 4294

Miles on unit 77,195 81,571 85865

Sample date 03/04/05 05/22/05 08/05/05



Aluminum 3 2 7

Chromium 2 1 0

Iron 7 6 5

Copper 2 2 5

Lead 1 1 5

Tin 1 0 0

Molybdenum 56 11 423

Nickel 0 0 0

Manganese 0 0 0

Silver 0 0 0

Titanium 0 0 0

Potassium 2 31 5

Boron 13 8 16

Silicon 14 11 5

Sodium 202 23 5

Calcium 1587 2099 2106

Magnesium 8 10 34

Phosphorus 649 731 748

Zinc 717 887 918

Barium 0 0 0



SUS VIS @210F 54.7

Visc cSt @100C 8.0

Flashpoint 390

Fuel%
Antifreeze 0.4 Neg Neg

Water 0.0 Neg Pos

Insolubles 0.5

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Butler thinks the water is from condensation.

According to the VOA of Havoline 5w20 SM GF4, this oil has 6 ppm of aluminum so my 7 ppm doesnt really bother me.
Copper and lead wear went up while silicon and sodium wear levels dropped.

Butler never sent me what the viscosity for this oil but I emailed them requesting they send me it. I think they just forgot to add it to the report.

Any Comments?
Thanks again in advance,
Oren

 

[TooSlick]

You'll note the iron and chrome levels (ring/cylinder/piston wear) nicely track the reduction in silicon levels.

The increase in Cu and Pb is due to all the MoDTC in this formulation - note that there is some sulphur dioxide liberated as all this MoDTC reacts under pressure.

You take (2)S02 + (2)H20 + 02 + heat and you get (2)H2SO4. Since you're an engineer I trust you recognize this compound from freshman chemistry?

I've long suspected this is why the TBN of very high moly formulations seems to drop pretty fast.

 

[farrarfan1]

TooSlick would it be safe to declare this a draw with all 3 showing pretty good wear metals? Even the lowly Valvoline which gets routinely blasted on this site gave similar results to the Castrol and Havoline.

 

[Storm897]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
You'll note the iron and chrome levels (ring/cylinder/piston wear) nicely track the reduction in silicon levels.

The increase in Cu and Pb is due to all the MoDTC in this formulation - note that there is some sulphur dioxide liberated as all this MoDTC reacts under pressure.

You take (2)S02 + (2)H20 + 02 + heat and you get (2)H2SO4. Since you're an engineer I trust you recognize this compound from freshman chemistry?

I've long suspected this is why the TBN of very high moly formulations seems to drop pretty fast.

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Thanks TooSlick! I assume 2H2SO4 = Sulphuric Acid?

As for the UOA, I have Havoline in there again. I purchased a case of the oil on sale at Advance Auto Parts. After reading TooSlick's comment I am comfortable with running it for ~4k intervals. I am using the L14610 purolator premium plus oil filter during the UOA's. I kept the same air filter in there through all 3 UOA's.

In my first UOA there was trace amounts of Anti-Freeze identified in the UOA which are no longer being detected.

TooSlick, where do you think the water came from? Condensation as suggested by Butler?

Thanks again,
Oren

 

[TooSlick]

Water is generated as a byproduct of burning gasoline, so it's always present....Condensation is also a secondary factor.

As for the very dilute sulphuric acid, I started to look for commonality amoung lubes that show high Pb and Cu levels. It's the presence of large amounts of MoDTC and NOT the basestock type that appears to corrolate with these high bearing alloy concentrations.

TS

 

[drums57]

Valvoline always gets bashed on this site castrol gets praised well guess what Valvoline out preformed castrol by a little, but has a much better additive package, i would use Valvoline over castrol anyday, only if Havoline was not available of course.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by drums57:
Valvoline always gets bashed on this site castrol gets praised well guess what Valvoline out preformed castrol by a little

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Hardly. The wear numbers from the Castrol and Valvoline UOAs are statistically identical.

 

[drums57]

G-man can you clearly see that Valvoline has a better add pack than castrol more zinc, calcium and more phos and mag.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by drums57:
G-man can you clearly see that Valvoline has a better add pack than castrol more zinc, calcium and more phos and mag.

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You said Valvoline outperformed the Castrol. The wear metal numbers don't show that.

The point of a UOA is to evaluate how well the oil prevented engine wear. Looking at the level of wear metals, these two oils performed equally well. The additive levels are irrelevant, IMO.

 

[drums57]

Look at the wear metals Valvoline did protect better than castrol,like i said a little better.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by drums57:
Look at the wear metals Valvoline did protect better than castrol,like i said a little better.

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I guess the meaning of "statistically insignificant" escapes you.

 

[drums57]

G-man i think you should spend more time on your quartz watch website.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by drums57:
G-man i think you should spend more time on your quartz watch website.

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Given the margin of error allowed for by any oil testing facility, please defend your proposition that the Valvoline outperformed the Castrol in this case. Enquiring minds want to know.

Did you mean this website?

 

[T-Keith]

Additive levels may be diluted in the first sample due to coolant contamination.

 

[Rob Taggs]

The Valvoline did do better by only one ppm on the different metals in just about every catagory. Seems to me this show only marginally better wear results but, Valvoline did win even though there is only a very, very small difference. Heck, I would go with Havoline. Castrol pumps it's self up to be better than anyone then it skimps on moly. The only thing Castrol has going for it is that it holds it's viscocity better than some.

 

[Storm897]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rob Taggs:
Heck, I would go with Havoline.

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I will probably buy more Havoline when it goes on sale and continue to use it for some time (atleast 15 more months). I plan on running another UOA sometime late next year, after 24k miles.

Thanks again for all the comments.
Oren

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rob Taggs:
The Valvoline did do better by only one ppm on the different metals in just about every catagory. Seems to me this show only marginally better wear results but, Valvoline did win even though there is only a very, very small difference.

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Given the margin for error in oil testing, a 1ppm difference between two test samples is statistically insignificant.

 

[oilyriser]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
You'll note the iron and chrome levels (ring/cylinder/piston wear) nicely track the reduction in silicon levels.

The increase in Cu and Pb is due to all the MoDTC in this formulation - note that there is some sulphur dioxide liberated as all this MoDTC reacts under pressure.

You take (2)S02 + (2)H20 + 02 + heat and you get (2)H2SO4. Since you're an engineer I trust you recognize this compound from freshman chemistry?

I've long suspected this is why the TBN of very high moly formulations seems to drop pretty fast.

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Maybe that explains Redline.

and is related to this thread:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000493

 

[goodvibes]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TooSlick:
You'll note the iron and chrome levels (ring/cylinder/piston wear) nicely track the reduction in silicon levels.

The increase in Cu and Pb is due to all the MoDTC in this formulation - note that there is some sulphur dioxide liberated as all this MoDTC reacts under pressure.

You take (2)S02 + (2)H20 + 02 + heat and you get (2)H2SO4. Since you're an engineer I trust you recognize this compound from freshman chemistry?

I've long suspected this is why the TBN of very high moly formulations seems to drop pretty fast.

---

I like this one. I have no idea if this is what actually happens but the dots connect. The results here are still good. Do you think that as the engine gets plated and less Mo gets used up in subsequent OCIs, the issue is diminished?