Group III in the marketplace?
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I think so. I used to get caught up in the whole group IV and V are the only way to go but I am over that now, thankfully. There are several awesome Group III oils out there!
Group 3 has changed the lubricant world currently, but it's not over yet.
Honestly I don't think any of us will see the end of lubricant technology. I feel the surface has barely been scratched. We'll see how far lube and auto manufactures want to take it
It did. Since they can be label as synthetic and most drivers do not know/care if a particular synthetic oil is group III or IV or V, XM was forced to keep their M1 prices very low in America to compete with group III oils such as PP, Synpower ...
Since group III can not be called synthetic in Europe, their synthetic price is a lot higher than in America
Since group III can not be called synthetic in Europe, their synthetic price is a lot higher than in America
Originally Posted By: DieselTech
Honestly I don't think any of us will see the end of lubricant technology. I feel the surface has barely been scratched. We'll see how far lube and auto manufactures want to take it
I think the internal combustion engine is one it's way out to be honest. Of course there will always be a need for lubricants so lube tech will continue to improve. But as far as motor oils are concerned, I don't know if we'll need them in the future as we know them today. I hope I am wrong because you just can't beat the sound and feel of an internal combustion engine.
Honestly I don't think any of us will see the end of lubricant technology. I feel the surface has barely been scratched. We'll see how far lube and auto manufactures want to take it
I think the internal combustion engine is one it's way out to be honest. Of course there will always be a need for lubricants so lube tech will continue to improve. But as far as motor oils are concerned, I don't know if we'll need them in the future as we know them today. I hope I am wrong because you just can't beat the sound and feel of an internal combustion engine.
Originally Posted By: dsmith41
Originally Posted By: DieselTech
Honestly I don't think any of us will see the end of lubricant technology. I feel the surface has barely been scratched. We'll see how far lube and auto manufactures want to take it
I think the internal combustion engine is one it's way out to be honest. Of course there will always be a need for lubricants so lube tech will continue to improve. But as far as motor oils are concerned, I don't know if we'll need them in the future as we know them today. I hope I am wrong because you just can't beat the sound and feel of an internal combustion engine.
I think you are wrong, at least partially, and hope so because I love my engines too. Hybrids have their place along with electric autos, but their place is L.A., a two fold improvement in batteries won't make them feasible for the rural midwest, especially where it gets cold , and I ain't talking about what californians think is cold. Electric isn't gonna cut it for semis, period. Even the so called experts who try to predict the industry say that it'll be 25 years or more before the internal combustion engine is no longer the leading option (but will still be a bare bones budget source in autos). This country continues to be misleadingly enamored with hybrids, hydrogen, etc. Sources to develop to be sure, but diesel tech is being ignored here while europe embraces it, and it works NOW. Me smells the media buzztalk and oil company lobbyists on that one. Nothing against hybrid drivers, but don't give me the holier-than-thou attitude when I can have a car that gets better mileage than yours, performs like a car should, and doesn't have the environmental concerns of battery disposal to boot.
Originally Posted By: DieselTech
Honestly I don't think any of us will see the end of lubricant technology. I feel the surface has barely been scratched. We'll see how far lube and auto manufactures want to take it
I think the internal combustion engine is one it's way out to be honest. Of course there will always be a need for lubricants so lube tech will continue to improve. But as far as motor oils are concerned, I don't know if we'll need them in the future as we know them today. I hope I am wrong because you just can't beat the sound and feel of an internal combustion engine.
I think you are wrong, at least partially, and hope so because I love my engines too. Hybrids have their place along with electric autos, but their place is L.A., a two fold improvement in batteries won't make them feasible for the rural midwest, especially where it gets cold , and I ain't talking about what californians think is cold. Electric isn't gonna cut it for semis, period. Even the so called experts who try to predict the industry say that it'll be 25 years or more before the internal combustion engine is no longer the leading option (but will still be a bare bones budget source in autos). This country continues to be misleadingly enamored with hybrids, hydrogen, etc. Sources to develop to be sure, but diesel tech is being ignored here while europe embraces it, and it works NOW. Me smells the media buzztalk and oil company lobbyists on that one. Nothing against hybrid drivers, but don't give me the holier-than-thou attitude when I can have a car that gets better mileage than yours, performs like a car should, and doesn't have the environmental concerns of battery disposal to boot.
dnewton3
Staff member
On topic: yes GIII have become satisfyingly awesome, and often (but not always) make PAOs almost redundant.
Off topic: fossil fueld vehicles will be around until someone comes up with a way to make electric vehicles viable for FULL use upon demand, for the entire drive cycle.
Let me be definitive. To me, I am not talking about the power unit that drives the vehicle. I am talking about the power STOREAGE system. Here's examples.
A pure electric car with only a battery will have 100% power availbe only for a short time. Then as it's driven the power will decrease, as the range also depletes. For short trip drives, that is no big deal. But for many of us that do long trips, and/or do heavy loads, the power depletion rate become unacceptable. Think of a flashlight. It might work for 10 hours, but it only provide acceptable performance for perhaps 5 hours, and then it greatly diminishes.
Now, if you have a fossil fueled vehicle, 100% power is available from the first drop to the last drop of fuel. That does not mean you run the engine at 100% WOT, but you at least have the POTENTIAL of FULL POWER at ANY moment during your drive, as needed.
The great debate of hybrids CAN be exciting, in some circumstances. It is nearly, almost perfect. But it is NOT 100% perfect. You get efficiency from battery in short trips, and full power potential in long trips. Even diesel locomotive engines are similar (no, not the same). They use diesel power to generate electricity that drives electric motors to propel the train. However, notice the HUGE disparity of SIZE! You can get great fuel economny from a Prius, but it sure can't pull a 10k lb trailer! I suppose a diesel/electric 1-ton truck could be constructed, but I would think that the cost involved might become cost prohibitive. The diesel engine costs so much money already, and now you want to cram more stuff into the engine bay that ALSO comuses space and money? Not to mention using up bed space for a battery?
And lets expand the concept past on-road transportation. Think of a lawn mower. Sure, a person with 1/5 acre might be able to walk behind a battery powered mower and do his grass. But that isn't feasible for me to do my 8 acres! I need my Kubota to be fully powered, as the PTO/Mower comsums large power, and I need that power for the full 2.5 hours. I will not accept a "battery tractor" that looses power after an hour, and by the end is only traveling at 1 mph and does not have enough blade-tip-speed at the deck to properly cut the grass.
Same can be said for chain saws. If you only want to cut up one small sapling, battery will work. But not for a full day of tree cutting for fire wood!
Hybrids are good vehicles when used in certain conditions. They are proving to be good logical reliable choices for commuters with light loads. They will NOT transport heavy loads.
Full electric battery-only vehicles are ONLY viable in short urban drives where frequent recharging is available, and power-potential drop is not experienced because of ultra short drive cycles.
Fossil-fuel-only equipment will have a place for many years to come.
Off topic: fossil fueld vehicles will be around until someone comes up with a way to make electric vehicles viable for FULL use upon demand, for the entire drive cycle.
Let me be definitive. To me, I am not talking about the power unit that drives the vehicle. I am talking about the power STOREAGE system. Here's examples.
A pure electric car with only a battery will have 100% power availbe only for a short time. Then as it's driven the power will decrease, as the range also depletes. For short trip drives, that is no big deal. But for many of us that do long trips, and/or do heavy loads, the power depletion rate become unacceptable. Think of a flashlight. It might work for 10 hours, but it only provide acceptable performance for perhaps 5 hours, and then it greatly diminishes.
Now, if you have a fossil fueled vehicle, 100% power is available from the first drop to the last drop of fuel. That does not mean you run the engine at 100% WOT, but you at least have the POTENTIAL of FULL POWER at ANY moment during your drive, as needed.
The great debate of hybrids CAN be exciting, in some circumstances. It is nearly, almost perfect. But it is NOT 100% perfect. You get efficiency from battery in short trips, and full power potential in long trips. Even diesel locomotive engines are similar (no, not the same). They use diesel power to generate electricity that drives electric motors to propel the train. However, notice the HUGE disparity of SIZE! You can get great fuel economny from a Prius, but it sure can't pull a 10k lb trailer! I suppose a diesel/electric 1-ton truck could be constructed, but I would think that the cost involved might become cost prohibitive. The diesel engine costs so much money already, and now you want to cram more stuff into the engine bay that ALSO comuses space and money? Not to mention using up bed space for a battery?
And lets expand the concept past on-road transportation. Think of a lawn mower. Sure, a person with 1/5 acre might be able to walk behind a battery powered mower and do his grass. But that isn't feasible for me to do my 8 acres! I need my Kubota to be fully powered, as the PTO/Mower comsums large power, and I need that power for the full 2.5 hours. I will not accept a "battery tractor" that looses power after an hour, and by the end is only traveling at 1 mph and does not have enough blade-tip-speed at the deck to properly cut the grass.
Same can be said for chain saws. If you only want to cut up one small sapling, battery will work. But not for a full day of tree cutting for fire wood!
Hybrids are good vehicles when used in certain conditions. They are proving to be good logical reliable choices for commuters with light loads. They will NOT transport heavy loads.
Full electric battery-only vehicles are ONLY viable in short urban drives where frequent recharging is available, and power-potential drop is not experienced because of ultra short drive cycles.
Fossil-fuel-only equipment will have a place for many years to come.
You guys are forgetting about fuel cells. My junior year in college I had an internship at Argonne Nat'l Lab and we had a fuel cell that ran on gasoline that was reformed into hydrogen gas. I've wondered since then why the heck we are not seeing such things. Sure there was issues like catalyst fouling due to CO but still that was 12 years ago...
A couple of mornings ago my local Fox news station has the new all electric Nissan on. Pretty good looking car, but on 100 mile range. Thats just not going to do the trick. When I was a real youngin, just starting in the automotive business i worked for saturn. When i was hired they unvailed the EV1, which lasted about a year.....That was 1996, and today electric cars can still only have a range of 100 miles. It doesn't seem the market is making much headway. EV1 batteries were $38,000.00. The virst EV1 rolled of he lot in Tempe AZ for $24,000.00
dnewton3
Staff member
Lipadj46
I did not forget about fuel cells. I like the concept of the technology.
But ...
They are a hybrid, conceptually. Not a "hybrid" in the sense that we think of now (such as a Prius or a Fusion with both battery/electric and small gas engine coupled to work together), but a hybrid in that they burn a fuel (hydrogen) to produce electricty, which in turn is used by a propulsion motor.
One thing I am not clear on is how the fuel cell technology is used; is it directly used from the grid to the motor, or is it indirect (from the cell, to a battery, to the motor)?
A fuel cell car is much akin to a diesel locomotive because it passes power through an intermediary source. It uses a gaseous fuel source to generate electricity. The fuel cell converts the hydrogen to electricity, and then the electricity turns a motor. The diesel locomotive used fuel to turn and engine, which in turn creates electricity to move a motor. Admittedly, fuel cells are very "clean and green" because the result is water vapor; there are no hydrocarbon byproducts. But they are not a pure electric vehicle. They use power generated via the burning of a fuel, and that fuel is converted to electrical energy, when is then converted to propulsion. ICE (internal combustion engines) convert hydrocarbon fuels directly into mechanical action. Fuel cell engines have to convert fuel to electricity, and then electricity to mechanical action. That's why, to me, it's very much like a diesel locomotive; fuel is burned, and then some inter-mediary media takes over, and then is subsequently convered to motion. The only reason a fuel cell has any real promise is because it's ultra clean; it burns hyrogen, not hydro-carbon. Remove the carbon and the polition is gone. But it's not necessarily more impressive from a power-production standpoint. It's just very desirable from a clean/green standpoint.
I have no need for a pure electric, battery-stored-energy vehicle or equipment. It simply will not work in my lifestyle. I want full power when I want it, even on long trips. I cannot abide by a fading power curve.
Fuel cells and gas/electric hybrids seem to have promise, in some applications. Again, their efficiency lies in smaller modes of transportation. I like that they can provide 100% power at any point of operation.
What I would really embrace is a nice car like my new Fusion, with a diesel/hybrid drivetrain. That would be VERY efficient. Would run on pure electric for short trips or low-power demands, but would have a (perhaps 3-cylinder) turbo-diesel engine for full power or long trips. THAT would be awesome!
I did not forget about fuel cells. I like the concept of the technology.
But ...
They are a hybrid, conceptually. Not a "hybrid" in the sense that we think of now (such as a Prius or a Fusion with both battery/electric and small gas engine coupled to work together), but a hybrid in that they burn a fuel (hydrogen) to produce electricty, which in turn is used by a propulsion motor.
One thing I am not clear on is how the fuel cell technology is used; is it directly used from the grid to the motor, or is it indirect (from the cell, to a battery, to the motor)?
A fuel cell car is much akin to a diesel locomotive because it passes power through an intermediary source. It uses a gaseous fuel source to generate electricity. The fuel cell converts the hydrogen to electricity, and then the electricity turns a motor. The diesel locomotive used fuel to turn and engine, which in turn creates electricity to move a motor. Admittedly, fuel cells are very "clean and green" because the result is water vapor; there are no hydrocarbon byproducts. But they are not a pure electric vehicle. They use power generated via the burning of a fuel, and that fuel is converted to electrical energy, when is then converted to propulsion. ICE (internal combustion engines) convert hydrocarbon fuels directly into mechanical action. Fuel cell engines have to convert fuel to electricity, and then electricity to mechanical action. That's why, to me, it's very much like a diesel locomotive; fuel is burned, and then some inter-mediary media takes over, and then is subsequently convered to motion. The only reason a fuel cell has any real promise is because it's ultra clean; it burns hyrogen, not hydro-carbon. Remove the carbon and the polition is gone. But it's not necessarily more impressive from a power-production standpoint. It's just very desirable from a clean/green standpoint.
I have no need for a pure electric, battery-stored-energy vehicle or equipment. It simply will not work in my lifestyle. I want full power when I want it, even on long trips. I cannot abide by a fading power curve.
Fuel cells and gas/electric hybrids seem to have promise, in some applications. Again, their efficiency lies in smaller modes of transportation. I like that they can provide 100% power at any point of operation.
What I would really embrace is a nice car like my new Fusion, with a diesel/hybrid drivetrain. That would be VERY efficient. Would run on pure electric for short trips or low-power demands, but would have a (perhaps 3-cylinder) turbo-diesel engine for full power or long trips. THAT would be awesome!
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Now I know what Salesrep does on snowy days in IL.
dnewton3
Staff member
When it snows on him, is that just excess precipitation that you guys didn't use??????
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We provide the snow and Iowa provides the wind.
Originally Posted By: lipadj46
You guys are forgetting about fuel cells. My junior year in college I had an internship at Argonne Nat'l Lab and we had a fuel cell that ran on gasoline that was reformed into hydrogen gas. I've wondered since then why the heck we are not seeing such things. Sure there was issues like catalyst fouling due to CO but still that was 12 years ago...
And what happens to the heat of combustion of C to CO2? The cell generates electricity from conversion of H2 to H20. Wasting the energy of the oxidation of carbon is inefficient. Throwing unoxidized carbon away is also inefficient.
Can anyone name a device that converts potential energy to mechanical energy that has an efficiency >50% except for a large diesel engine? Even the little engine in my Unimog is 46% at full load, 12-1600 rpm.
Electric motors can of course be 80 or even 90% efficient, but one must also take into account the generation of the electricity.
Charlie
You guys are forgetting about fuel cells. My junior year in college I had an internship at Argonne Nat'l Lab and we had a fuel cell that ran on gasoline that was reformed into hydrogen gas. I've wondered since then why the heck we are not seeing such things. Sure there was issues like catalyst fouling due to CO but still that was 12 years ago...
And what happens to the heat of combustion of C to CO2? The cell generates electricity from conversion of H2 to H20. Wasting the energy of the oxidation of carbon is inefficient. Throwing unoxidized carbon away is also inefficient.
Can anyone name a device that converts potential energy to mechanical energy that has an efficiency >50% except for a large diesel engine? Even the little engine in my Unimog is 46% at full load, 12-1600 rpm.
Electric motors can of course be 80 or even 90% efficient, but one must also take into account the generation of the electricity.
Charlie
m37charlie, how about a picture of your Unimog and your 79 BJ40.
Hybrid is neat, but as the name implys , it's alternative form of transportation.
Using hybrid diesel/hydraulic and electric for vocational trucks and whatnot could be pretty neat, no idling a 12l engine all day for pto!
Hybrid diesel/hydraulic can store PE into canisters and release it pretty quickly.
Some of the Diesel hydraulic stuff is less complex than a typical diesel transmission drive line.
This stuff is coming. It will happen, but it will be a alternative.
Using hybrid diesel/hydraulic and electric for vocational trucks and whatnot could be pretty neat, no idling a 12l engine all day for pto!
Hybrid diesel/hydraulic can store PE into canisters and release it pretty quickly.
Some of the Diesel hydraulic stuff is less complex than a typical diesel transmission drive line.
This stuff is coming. It will happen, but it will be a alternative.
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