Group 4 vs 5 base stock, is 5 always worth it?

[Mtnbiker]

Is group 5 stock always better than group 4 base stock? Is it worth it to always buy ester vs PAO or any other base stock, if oil changes are done every 5,000 or even 10,000. miles with a new filter? As far as I have read so far REDLINE seems to be the only group 5/ester base stock. Also drive mainly in the midatlantic region of the US, so not extreme conditions. One engi is gas direct injection others are port injectio. Not sure about my motorcycles other than one is a 2 strok, so I assume totally different concerns.
thank you

 

[wpod]

Why would you be looking a gp 4 or 5 if gp 2+ or 3 will allow your engine to out live your ownership of the vehicle?

 

[kschachn]

And considering that a Group V base stock can be anything other than what is included in the other groups, just using that as your metric is a fools errand. In fact using base stock by itself as your only metric is foolish. A fully-formulated motor oil is more than just base stock. The approvals, specifications and licenses define the quality of the oil. Not the base stock.

I no longer work in a research laboratory, but when I did I could formulate you a truly horrendous Group V base stock motor oil.

 

[tblt44]

No not worth it

 

[blufeb95]

At a reasonable OCI, boutique oils are largely a waste of dough. Generally no oil is going to be all esters or all PAO, it's going to be a blend of esters with PAO or Grp III oil, as ester oil on it's own tends to be extremely expensive . Valvoline PBR is li, and also esters tend to have an effect on expanding seals so generally you have to balance esters with PAO or Grp III in order to get an oil that's not too harsh on seals.

 

[UG_Passat]

At a reasonable OCI, boutique oils are largely a waste of dough. Generally no oil is going to be all esters or all PAO, it's going to be a blend of esters with PAO or Grp III oil, as ester oil on it's own tends to be extremely expensive . Valvoline PBR is li, and also esters tend to have an effect on expanding seals so generally you have to balance esters with PAO or Grp III in order to get an oil that's not too harsh on seals.

You must not been around the forum for the Audi RS6 FSI saga, where RI_RS6 paid Terry Dyson to work with Renewable Lubes to develop a boutique oil that was superior to the VW oil specifications for the heavy fuel dilution engine with high iron ppm in UOA's from short, but factory recommended oil changes.

 

[UG_Passat]

Is group 5 stock always better than group 4 base stock? Is it worth it to always buy ester vs PAO or any other base stock, if oil changes are done every 5,000 or even 10,000. miles with a new filter? As far as I have read so far REDLINE seems to be the only group 5/ester base stock. Also drive mainly in the midatlantic region of the US, so not extreme conditions. One engi is gas direct injection others are port injectio. Not sure about my motorcycles other than one is a 2 strok, so I assume totally different concerns.
thank you

Amsoil Signature Series is also Group V/IV.

Motul has their 300V oils also, which is Group V/IV.

Keep in mind, Redline Professional series is Group III.

 

[blufeb95]

You must not been around the forum for the Audi RS6 FSI saga, where RI_RS6 paid Terry Dyson to work with Renewable Lubes to develop a boutique oil that was superior to the VW oil specifications for the heavy fuel dilution engine with high iron ppm in UOA's from short, but factory recommended oil changes.

Key word being largerly, that's a very specific case where it would make sense.

 

[UG_Passat]

Key word being largerly, that's a very specific case where it would make sense.

But, the VAG 2.0T FSI's were also suffering from the same problem from VW 502.00 oils, so...with the popularity of that engine in VW's lineup... it's not a specific case anymore, as those engines benefitted from the boutique oil also.

 

[Mtnbiker]

The main engine I am concerned about is the 2014 Audi 3.0t/supercharged . I know most people will not care. But if we may all learn, this is good.
Thank you all for your information and wisdom.

 

[adams355]

If you have a performance or modified car its generally worth using quality oils with group 3-4-5 blends, especially if you are doing track days, 1/4 mile track stuff, running heaps of boost or using ethanol fuels.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

No.

First all oils are a blend of base stocks it's the percentages which are different. Esters can compete with anti-wear additives which are applied to metal surfaces so a balance must be struck. Ultimately redline oils are excellent for racing but from what I've seen via UOA's they don't perform any better on a passenger car with a 7k-10k miles OCI. Esters for example don't like moisture so short tripping in cold weather will reduce the service life of the oil. Ultimately it's always easier to shop oil certs such as VW 504/507 and then if you want shop for a product which is for example both VW 504 and Mercedes Benz 229.51.

 

[edyvw]

Is group 5 stock always better than group 4 base stock? Is it worth it to always buy ester vs PAO or any other base stock, if oil changes are done every 5,000 or even 10,000. miles with a new filter? As far as I have read so far REDLINE seems to be the only group 5/ester base stock. Also drive mainly in the midatlantic region of the US, so not extreme conditions. One engi is gas direct injection others are port injectio. Not sure about my motorcycles other than one is a 2 strok, so I assume totally different concerns.
thank you

There are pro's and con's. In reality you want to look first and foremost for approvals. But, not all oils with approvals are created equal. Just bcs. oil is stuffed with Esters does not mean it will be better in normal exploitation. Redline Performance series is packed with GR V but Redline also oxidizes more. It is more suitable for shorter OCI, people who track vehicles etc. Motul 300V as UG_Passat mentioned is also really good for track, but waste of money in regular exploitation. They all tend to post higher TAN values coming close to remaining TBN values which is not good. So, shorter OCI, but also more expensive. So why going with that in regular exploitation?
Now, oils like Castrol 0W40, Motul GEN2 etc. are way to go for regular driving and even some track days. They are mix of various base stocks, they are formulated for longer OCI etc. Personally I would avoid Mobil1 0W40 in DI engine like Audi 3.0T bcs. of high Sulfated Ash values.

 

[Mtnbiker]

Is there such a thing as the toughest or best standard to meet such as: Porsche has a40, c40..., VW 502 507...,merc 229.51, etc. or any other?
Am I correct or wrong in thinking the best oil for a port Injection engine may not be the best for a GDI/gasoline direct injection engine/TFSI?
Thank you.

 

[edyvw]

Is there such a thing as the toughest or best standard to meet such as: Porsche has a40, c40..., VW 502 507...,merc 229.51, etc. or any other?
Am I correct or wrong in thinking the best oil for a port Injection engine may not be the best for a GDI/gasoline direct injection engine/TFSI?
Thank you.

Depends on the vehicle. But, MB 229.5 and Porsche A40 for Full SAPS oils or MB229.51/52, VW504.00/507.00 (Porsche C30) and VW511.00/Porsche C40 for Lower-SAPS.
Oxidation wise: Any BMW approval.

 

[riggaz]

Is group 5 stock always better than group 4 base stock? Is it worth it to always buy ester vs PAO or any other base stock, if oil changes are done every 5,000 or even 10,000. miles with a new filter? As far as I have read so far REDLINE seems to be the only group 5/ester base stock. Also drive mainly in the midatlantic region of the US, so not extreme conditions. One engi is gas direct injection others are port injectio. Not sure about my motorcycles other than one is a 2 strok, so I assume totally different concerns.
thank you

As others have alluded to the most important thing is to get the application right and there are only two things you need to get right for that:

1. The viscosity recommended by the OEM
2. The performance spec recommended by the OEM.

Assuming we're talking about car oils of the same viscosity and performance recommended by your OEM then the answer is....no.

The base oil plays a significant part but the business end (and clever part) of the lubricant is the additive package. You'll get many well-additised group 2's and 3's that will perform as well and sometimes better than 4's and 5's in their correct application simply due to the base oil of 2's and 3's being a better diluent and having better seal compatibility. The polar G5 base oils can sometimes compete with the additive pack as both are trying to attach to the metal surfaces. One oil company I know is using non-polar ester in their top tier competition lubes to avoid this phenomenon which has had a big impact on wear reduction numbers. PAO has a very good pour point number but seal compatibility can be an issue.

For your 2-stroke bike engine, ester will, as a rule, be better. Ester just works really well in 2-stroke engines.

But whether it's car or bike, always start with the two points above, everything else comes after that.

I've never seen an ester-based oil that handles any type of financially viable drain interval in passenger cars.
Best,
Riggaz

 

[riggaz]

The main engine I am concerned about is the 2014 Audi 3.0t/supercharged . I know most people will not care. But if we may all learn, this is good.
Thank you all for your information and wisdom.

what model and engine code is your Audi?

 

[Mtnbiker]

what model and engine code is your Audi?

2014 Q5 gasoline 3.0t/tfsi. T does not stand for turbo in this case. It is Supercharged, NO turbo lag!!

 

[riggaz]

2014 Q5 gasoline 3.0t/tfsi. T does not stand for turbo in this case. It is Supercharged, NO turbo lag!!

Nice wheels.

For fixed interval service regime, which is the best engine protection service regime, 6.8ltrs of 5w-40 502.00 oil is the recommendation as you probably already know.

There are so many 5w-40 502.00 oils out there so you've got some great artistic licence in terms of your favourite brands. Mobil 1 0w-40 I'm sure will be an option even though the winter viscosity is lower than the 5w recommended and it'll be hard to beat in terms of wear reduction, engine cleanliness and price.

I've found it best to halve the recommended interval and use high-quality oil (ignore base oil groups when you're thinking about wear reduction). It'll keep the engine really clean.

 

[sloinker]

If it was mine I wouldn't hesitate to use Red Line High Performance oil or even the 504/507 Euro oils. I would not get too crazy with interval like some Group IV users do, whatever the manufacturer suggests is where I would land. If cost is a factor then choose something off the shelf at walmart.