Grounding Electrical Question ?...help

[Trucku]

I have been trying to look up National Electrical Code on grounding an electric panel.

My landlord building is having an issue. In my apartment I have a tin ceiling. From the floor to my ceiling is a metal gas line for the stove in the apartment above me. The other day right where the tin ceiling touched the gas pipe it was arcing. It looked like a flashlight was shinning through it. I thought light was shinning through from the upstairs apt. Anyways...NO. it was hot. I shot it with my fire extinguisher and called the fire dept.

So currently from the tin ceiling to the metal pipe my meter shows
6volts ac and as high as 14.

The electrician came today and just said we needed a new ground from the main box and other boxes in the basement Currently it is ground to the main water pipe coming into the building. He did nothing else except say it’s going to be expensive and he needs to put a 10' rod in the ground. He didn't even turn any breakers off to see if the voltage is eliminated. He said the pipe ground was all rusted out. I checked and it was not at all. You can’t even budge the wire. I asked lots of questions, but he said oh it needs grounding and didn't do anything else. This problem just occurred. Maybe some wire came loose or something. He also said we would feel shocks from the faucet and we don't ever, but he said we will start to? #@$%!!.

Now I feel like this guy just wants to charge the landlord a lot of cash. One of the first things he said was "it’s going to be a lot"


Can I put this rod in and the new ground wire. Is the current ground to the water pipe sufficient? If for some reason it’s corroded can't I just buy a new right ground clamp and connect it to the pipe?

I don't know the codes and have had no luck finding it online. I just don't want them to get ripped off when it can be done by me and the son.


Sorry for the bad grammar in advance...lol.

Thanks
Vishant

 

[simple_gifts]

Either call another electrician to get another opinion, but DO NOT do electrical work unless you are a licensed electrician.

Maintaining the building is not your responsibility; the owner needs to handle the situation; this is why YOU PAY RENT.

 

[Trucku]

I understand what your saying, but do you know what the code requires for building grounding?

The landlord consists of the wife the daughter, a brother who is worthless and an older one who is never available. The daughter doesn't know what to do and I want to at least help somehow and not let them get ripped off.

Anyone know if the pipe ground is sufficient or does it need the metal rod too? Can the rod be put in by the owner and then have the municipal electrical inspector check your work.

 

[Oldmoparguy1]

Call the folks that enforce the building codes. Definitely find another electrician. That guy is a crook. The building grounds that I've seen are 10'x1/2" copper plated steel rods, driven in the ground and connected to the main box with a heavy cable. In your case, there is something else going on. The gas pipe should not be grounded to the building ground. Gas lines are grounded at the meter AFAIK. I'm surprised the FD didn't have the gas shut off. Can you imagine that hot spot breaking through? Gas+spark, KA-BOOM!!!

Just had a thought. Assuming the gas pipe is correctly grounded, then your tin ceiling has some sort of short to the electric service. Just thinking about this situation scares the heck out of me. Contact the code enforcement people. If nothing else, they will know how it should be.

Good luck.
W.D.

 

[Trucku]

Thanks Oldmoparguy1

I know there is a issue someplace else, but the guy made no effort to look. This is a new problem so I don't believe his grounding explanation. The main box has what looks like copper #6 thick stranded wire going right into the street water pipe.

I hung a small 7 watt bulb between the tin ceiling and pipe and it lights very very dimly only seen in the dark, but not all the time. the voltage right now is 6v ac...so weird. I don't get it. I checked the panel downstairs and its all good and looks new for such a old building. The ground is solid.

The fire dept killed my gas...lol but they weren't listening to me. The guy used his thermal cam to find the hot spot in ceiling. The pipe though is my upstairs neighbors gas pipe not mine. This building has bx cabling everywhere and i am sure its laying on the tin ceiling, but the low voltage I cant explain.

 

[Oldmoparguy1]

If you have BX, then somewhere there is a spot with insulation starting to breakdown. This can happen where the BX connects to a junction box. The BX itself should be grounded. Almost sounds like someone did some DIY electrical work somewhere and mixed up the black and white wires. Like I said, good luck..

 

[Trucku]

Thanks Oldmoarguy1....you said it DIY big time. The bx to the boxes are missing the insulators and seems like they used some kind of snips to cut it and not a bx cutter. Tomorrow I will pull down my kitchen fixture and look around when my wife comes home.

been reading National Electric Code and looks like the pipe to street ground is sufficient. That #@$%! took $375 from my landlord. Seem like the boxes downstairs are wire" edison style" with on common neutral which is not commonly used. So I am gonna take a screw driver and tighten all of the neutral screws also.

Thanks again.

 

[Master ACiD]

if that water pipe is in the ground then it would be just as good of a ground as a copper plated steel rod would be. the pipe is atleast strong enough to maintain city water presure? then its good enough to be a ground for youre apartment.
does the gas main also go into the ground? sence its geting sparks i would bet a big yes.

as for youre tin roof and gas main, im from florida do i dont really have any expierence with tin roofs and gas mains, but under normal circumstances, a ground isnt even needed. its only needed when you have a power leak, (like youre powered roof). now just adding a ground to the roof wont fix the problem. adding a ground to youre gas main or roof only bandaids the problem. the real problem is that somehow power is leaking into the tin roof. the solution is to find the leak and eliminate it. if the electrician adds some grounds and doesnt actually fix the problem you will still be leaking power to the ground, it just wont be as dangerous (for now) but that leakage of power is going to forever drive up youre electric bill.

all the gas company, and the electric company.

having a liscenced electrician doesnt mean squat. a liscence is just a tax, a way to regulate. it isnt insurance, and it doesnt guarantee anything. usually theres 1 or 2 liscenced electricians in a company, and all the unliscenced underlings do the field work. you be lucky is a liscenced electrician shows up to even inspect the work done.

 

[Trucku]

Thanks Master ACiD.

I have been reading the National Electric Code.
Underground Metal Water Pipe Supplemental Electrode Required. The underground metal water pipe grounding electrode, if present [250.52(A)(1)], must be supplemented by one of the following electrodes:

* Metal frame of the building or structure [250.52(A)(2)]
* Concrete-encased steel [250.52(A)(3)] Figure 250–100
* Ground ring [250.52(A)(4)]

Where none of the above electrodes are available, one of the following electrodes must be used:

* Ground rod in accordance with 250.56 [250.52(A)(5)]
* Grounding plate [250.52(A)(6)]
* Metal underground systems [250.52(A)(7)]

Your right there is a power leak someplace and this guy just wants to make a big payday for himself.
I am #@$%! he took them ladies (mother and daughter building owners) for almost 400dollars. The #@$%! son is a 32 year old "not arounder". He doesn't even make and effort to help them out. The father died just under a year ago. So daughter is taking on all the responsibility. I just want to help them out


I just read a ton of rules and terms to get educated.

 

[Sparkman]

The guy could be right about the ground, if the ground were bad and the ceiling were connected to it, and the gas line was well grounded, the ceiling could have voltage relative to the gas line depending on the phase balance. In an apartment I rented about a year ago I helped my landlord debug a problem that turned out to be bad connections at the pipe ground and the meter box, some lights would get brighter when others were turned on, again phase balance and ground impedance issues.

Get another electrician, what he proposes doing shouldn't cost much.

 

[Trucku]

Thanks Sparkman

We have never experienced any dimming. According to NEC the landlord needs to install a supplemental ground electrode conductor and bond that to the water pipe. That is understandable, but this guy made no effort to trouble shoot the problem. I checked the ground on the pipe and its solid. All connected from hot to neutral rod did not fluctuate on my multimeter. I was also reading as confusing as all the codes are that a ground can be wired from the electrical panel in a continuous loop to the rod, water pipe then back to panel. I spend 3 hours last night with 10 tabs opened in firefox, then lost them all when I closed it...LOL. For some reason it decided to not save my tabs as it does normally.

I just found out from the eldest son of my landlord that the POS that was here was quoting some thousands of dollars to install a rod into the ground and wire it to the nuetral rail of the panels.

How do they test the ground/oh for ohms? It it doesn't meet specs then you have to put in 2 rods (at least 6 feet apart) and use a bonding jumper between them.

Very newbie at this...

 

[eljefino]

Find out if the people above you just put in a new electric range.

For the longest time, until 1996 or so, they've been allowed to use ground as neutral to complete the circuit for the 115 AC clock and possibly convenience outlet. Stoves shipped and may still ship with a jumper between neutral and ground depending on which pigtail is used. People screw this up all the time.

The problem rises if there's resistance in the ground, which is usually connected haphazardly through painted pipes etc. So ground does not equal neutral and you get current between the two.

Anyway find out if there's something new going on upstairs.

I would not touch ANYTHING b/c these "nice" landlords will turn around and sue you for tightening those connections. Their insurance requires a licensed electrician, I'm quite sure. "Stuff" rolls downhill and by the time the building burns to the ground everyone will have insurance pointing the finger, defending themselves, and you'll be SOL.

The real point of a ground, is so all the metal in a building is at one potential. If a "hot" wire contacts any of this, instead of having the whole house shock anyone who's standing on ground and touches a doorknob, the fuse will overload and blow. If your tin ceiling were grounded better, a thicker conductor, a stronger circtit, it should have blown whatever fuse is causing the problem.

 

[CivicFan]

Remember. No good deed goes unpunished.

 

[Trucku]

nope no electric range upstairs. That's what I thought. I figured the range was shorting and the voltage being carried by the gas line.

Thanks eljefino
I hear ya..good point on the insurance issue.I won't be touching anything. I don't want to shoot myself in the foot with someone elses bad wiring. The landlord is looking for a new electrician as I write. I told the eldest son to have them put a new bond on the copper wire to the water pipe( burial rated).

My wife told the landlord yesterday that this is a big issue and if this place burns to the ground they are responsible since they initially were not making any moves to get it fixed. I told them if this place burns down you have insurance, but me and my family loose everything.

Yeah no breaker is tripping at all. I am still monitoring only 6-16 volts from the tin ceiling to the gas pipe.

You guys have made more sense than the retard that came here last night and tried to make a big buck for his boss.

It all would have been good if a honest good qualified electrician or one in training came in and fixed the issue.
The landlord is not opposed to spending money, just not pay 2000 dollars for someone to drive a electrode into the ground and use a bonding jumper between it and the water pipe.

 

[Trucku]

Quote:

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Remember. No good deed goes unpunished.

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I hear ya

 

[brianl703]

Quote:

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How do they test the ground/oh for ohms?

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The test I've seen is to take a 5-amp fuse, connect one side of it to the ground rod, and connect the other side of it to 120V.

If the fuse blows, the ground is good.

Obviously, this is something you should either not do yourself or know how to do safely.

 

[Crashbox]

Quote:

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Quote:

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How do they test the ground/oh for ohms?

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The test I've seen is to take a 5-amp fuse, connect one side of it to the ground rod, and connect the other side of it to 120V.

If the fuse blows, the ground is good.

Obviously, this is something you should either not do yourself or know how to do safely.

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I thought a "megger" was the device usually used- a device that applies a high-voltage (400 volts or so), low-amperage potential to what is being tested, e.g., wire insulation, etc. The five-amp fuse thing I've never heard of and sounds dangerous if the fuse were to explode.

 

[Trucku]

great thanks.

I just wanted to know. So when the next electrician comes by I can ask or understand what he is talking about. Now I have some more knowledge to present.

 

[Sparkman]

A megger is used for testing very high impedance circuits, megger is derived from megaohms. You need a way of testing a very low impedance circuit, so you'll need a very precise ohm meter with kelvin connections. Testing a suspect ground by applying line voltage is asking for it, fuse or not.

 

[Crashbox]

Thanks Sparkman- looks like I had a cerebral short.