Gotta gas up..

[OVERKILL]

Having ¼ of a tank of gasoline left will give a driver a much more consistent idea of how many more miles they can travel. Cold weather, hills, and other factors change that equation when it comes to batteries.

All those things have an impact on gas mileage too. My winter gas mileage is much lower than my summer, hills burn more gas, speed burns more gas...etc. Perhaps they have a more dramatic effect on an EV, but the impact happens in both cases.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Everybody gets an electricity bill, so everybody should at least have a rudimentary understanding of kWh consumed and its use as a unit of measure. It's no different than gallons or litres.

I don't see the correlation between the time required to fill up vs charge and the perversion of the units in play. I've put $20 in a tank before to get where I needed to be when I was young and broke, as I assume most people have. Just because an EV doesn't use petrol or diesel and takes longer to charge than it takes to fill a tank doesn't mean we get to disregard the proper units of measure. Average Joe, if presented with both kWh capacity and range is going to very quickly, and easily, figure out that 10kWh doesn't get him as far if he's wailing on it just like was the case with 20 gallons, it's a pretty easy correlation to make and drives behaviour based on consumption.

Regarding electricity bill: You may be right, but I don't think so. Did you learn about kWh in high school? I did not. But some of the high schools did offer electronics... Yes, people get electricty bills; I believe most people just pay them. It is the dollar value that they notice. Again, just my opinion. I may be wrong, but I don't know very many people who think in terms of kWh.

Putting $20 into a gas tank takes 5 minutes max. In CA, at $3 gallon, $20 is almost 7 gallons. More than 1/4 tank. To put in 1/4 tank in a Tesla will take much longer. If you gotta be somewhere in 20 minutes, you might be SOL.
Also, finding a gas station is generally far easier than finding a place to charge when you are on the road. At least today...

All I am saying is, these cars are different. You learn what works for you based on need and available charging.

 

[blingo]

It's a flavor of barely coded activism. Science_based vs. pre_Texas_based, Newtonian 710 cap against market cap, grey wolves and troops against the sheeple intellectualism,.. whatever Georgia needs on its side. And a classic challenge of absolute units of course
theguardian.com/technology/2019/may/21/elon-musk-tesla-social-media-absolute-unit-meme

 

[BeerCan]

It's a flavor of barely coded activism. Science_based vs. pre_Texas_based, Newtonian 710 cap against market cap, grey wolves and troops against the sheeple intellectualism,.. whatever Georgia needs on its side. And a classic challenge of absolute units of course
theguardian.com/technology/2019/may/21/elon-musk-tesla-social-media-absolute-unit-meme

blingo, I've come to look forward to your posts. Right on man

 

[Job]

I have relatives, ex in laws, who live in Los Gatos, rich as all get out. They have a large ranch in the mountains and a winery on another parcel, plus another ranch in the Morgan Hill mountains. Husband wouldn't know how to change oil but owns a fairly large contruction business serving mainly government contracts. I hate to say it but they were a lot nicer people before they got rich.

Everybody gets an electricity bill, so everybody should at least have a rudimentary understanding of kWh consumed and its use as a unit of measure. It's no different than gallons or litres.

I don't see the correlation between the time required to fill up vs charge and the perversion of the units in play. I've put $20 in a tank before to get where I needed to be when I was young and broke, as I assume most people have. Just because an EV doesn't use petrol or diesel and takes longer to charge than it takes to fill a tank doesn't mean we get to disregard the proper units of measure. Average Joe, if presented with both kWh capacity and range is going to very quickly, and easily, figure out that 10kWh doesn't get him as far if he's wailing on it just like was the case with 20 gallons, it's a pretty easy correlation to make and drives behaviour based on consumption.

A gallon is a jug of something, a kwh is like ????? whatt hours are you talking about. Kill what hours?

 

[PimTac]

blingo, I've come to look forward to your posts. Right on man

Obviously you understand his posts. I gave up on that a while back.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Obviously you understand his posts. I gave up on that a while back.

Half the time I don't understand a word people say, but it sure sounds cool!

 

[JeffKeryk]

You say say Jeff is associating with unenlightened people. You call me a liar.
I live in the SE US also in NC, AL, GA at times. Average 16 yo cannot do the things you claim, you are delusional.

This thread is getting locked again. I promise not to reply to your post again but I am tired of your subtle and not so subtle digs on people.
You suck all the air out of the room with your need to be seen as smart and can't let anyone have a conversation.
Mods: I see I am aggravating the situation and will not continue, just had to vent.

All good BeerCan. No worries.
FYI, I live in a beautiful part of Silicon Valley.
Silicon Valley is probably the most culturally diverse place on earth.
And opportunity abounds, lemme tell ya. I love it here.

 

[OVERKILL]

Regarding electricity bill: You may be right, but I don't think so. Did you learn about kWh in high school? I did not. But some of the high schools did offer electronics... Yes, people get electricty bills; I believe most people just pay them. It is the dollar value that they notice. Again, just my opinion. I may be wrong, but I don't know very many people who think in terms of kWh.

Putting $20 into a gas tank takes 5 minutes max. In CA, at $3 gallon, $20 is almost 7 gallons. More than 1/4 tank. To put in 1/4 tank in a Tesla will take much longer. If you gotta be somewhere in 20 minutes, you might be SOL.
Also, finding a gas station is generally far easier than finding a place to charge when you are on the road. At least today...

All I am saying is, these cars are different. You learn what works for you based on need and available charging.

Yes, we learned about watts, amps, volts, AC and DC...etc in school. I always look at my kWh consumed on my electricity bill, but I'm an energy nut, my dad may not, but then he doesn't probably look at how many litres it took him to fill the tank, just what it cost and that he's got x amount of range from 1/2, 3/4, full...etc and knows that varies depending on where and how he drives and if he's towing or not, all the same things that will impact range on an EV and will have a bearing on how far a given state of charge will get you.

I don't think obfuscation is the answer to part of the population possibly not having the proper grasp of a given unit of measure that they should, by all accounts, be very familiar with, given they deal with it monthly. Dumbing things down and in turn making things less accurate to me doesn't seem like the right approach. Give range and give state of charge. Express capacity in kWh and one can have 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full as SOC's. People will naturally make the correlation as to what equals what just like they do with their existing vehicles.

 

[OVERKILL]

I have relatives, ex in laws, who live in Los Gatos, rich as all get out. They have a large ranch in the mountains and a winery on another parcel, plus another ranch in the Morgan Hill mountains. Husband wouldn't know how to change oil but owns a fairly large contruction business serving mainly government contracts. I hate to say it but they were a lot nicer people before they got rich.

A gallon is a jug of something, a kwh is like ????? whatt hours are you talking about. Kill what hours?

Perhaps the disconnect is metric? Everybody knows a kilometre is 1,000 metres for example in places that use metric, same with mass, a kilogram is 1,000 grams. Ergo, a kilowatt hour is 1,000 watt hours.

My point is that conceptually, kWh as a capacity value isn't going to require a lot of work for people to understand, it will become familiar quite rapidly. That cannot be a bad thing, given that so much of this "green" movement hinges on electricity. I do not believe in the championing of ignorance and efforts made to dumb things down and in turn reducing their value. The solution is never less knowledge.

 

[OVERKILL]

Obviously you understand his posts. I gave up on that a while back.

Same. It's like trying to read the shredded pages of a thesaurus under the pretence that it was a dramatic novel.

 

[pezzy84]

I'm not sure how this thread went downhill so fast in just 1 day.......

Long story short. With BEV its just like having a car in where you kinda know how many miles you will generally get on a charge and how often you need to plug in. Sportwagen TDI in my sig I know I can generally go ~270-300 miles (100% terrible city commuting) before low fuel light comes on, E-Golf (low range pre-2017) I know a full charge will get me 75-79 miles during summer and 55-60 miles during the winter. The conversion from mpg to mi/kwh is still a total mind F%$# even now 9 months into my E-Golf because you cannot visualize the energy while you can hold a gallon of milk. I shoot to stay in/near 4 and my average is 4.1.
As for charging times - they don't vary much at all and it is pretty much steady state. VW Carnet and the dashboard have been off by maybe 5 minutes max on a 2.5 hour charge. DC fast charging is ultra convenient (but expensive), from near empty I have to high tail it through the grocery store because its at 80% within 15 mins, it continues to charge to full at slower L2 rates but you are paying a huge premium plugged into the DC line.

 

[JeffKeryk]

My point is that conceptually, kWh as a capacity value isn't going to require a lot of work for people to understand, it will become familiar quite rapidly. That cannot be a bad thing, given that so much of this "green" movement hinges on electricity. I do not believe in the championing of ignorance and efforts made to dumb things down and in turn reducing their value. The solution is never less knowledge.

I struggle with this... I don't think people care about kWh or gallons or whatever. They care about dollars.
Do people know how many gallons of gas their cars hold? I don't. And I replaced the tank in my '68 Vette; 20 gallon tank as I recall.

I believe most people get in their cars and go. How many even change their own oil?
When is the last time the average car owner checked the air in their tires?

 

[UncleDave]

Growing up in both the city and country and living in numerous places I find it very interesting what kids are taught and what is common knowledge in one place is not in another. Biggest difference between country and city kids.

I sold repaired an upgraded dog grooming vans at the boat shop for about 5 years and did not come across 1 in 500 that truly understood generators, power, heat, or inverters and even fewer that understood hooking up batteries correctly.

Othwerwise very smart people needed hours to digest and learn what things truly consume and how much energy even basic things require.

 

[UncleDave]

Same. It's like trying to read the shredded pages of a thesaurus under the pretence that it was a dramatic novel.

I think I enjoy his input, but cant tell at least half the time ??!?!??

 

[OVERKILL]

I struggle with this... I don't think people care about kWh or gallons or whatever. They care about dollars.
Do people know how many gallons of gas their cars hold? I don't. And I replaced the tank in my '68 Vette; 20 gallon tank as I recall.

I believe most people get in their cars and go. How many even change their own oil?
When is the last time the average car owner checked the air in their tires?

People care about the cost of a gallon of gas though There's your corollary. Gas is priced in either per gallon or per litre, electricity is priced by the kWh, so you aware of the units, even if it is the cost that's the figure you are concerned about.

Yes, I know the Jeep has a ~80L tank as does the truck because, well, I do. The Audi had a 95kWh battery I believe. Do I immediately think "oh no, I've got 75kWh left", no, I'd look and figure I've got 3/4 SOC, roughly the same as 3/4 of a tank in the Jeep. I can check the cluster to see how far that might get me, but what I'll glance at is the gas gauge, similar to how what I watched on the Audi was SOC and the odd glance at range, which changed, depending on how I drove, just like km until empty on the Jeep and RAM.

On the Audi app you'd target the SOC you'd want to have in the morning or when you plugged in. I would have liked it to also provide me with kWh, but it didn't, just SOC, which was very much like the gas gauge on a petrol vehicle.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Yes, people get electricty bills; I believe most people just pay them. It is the dollar value that they notice. Again, just my opinion. I may be wrong, but I don't know very many people who think in terms of kWh.

True ... even people that know exactly what a kWh is don't look at the KWh use and cost break down on their power bill (a tiered KWh use cost model). They might look at the total amount of power used for that billing and how it compared to last month or the same month a year ago, but ultimately the total cost is all they really care about.

As far as the EV's "MPH" (miles per hour of charging), I can see the usefulness of the metric. It would basically be the same as estimating that an ICE vehicle is going to be getting X miles per Y gallon of gasoline added when the vehicle knows what average MPGs it's been getting. Kind of funny that people get so bent out of shape over something so simple.

I have a couple of ICE cars that have DTE (distance to empty) readouts, and they have shown to be pretty accurate after I've tracked them closely with recorded MPG and DTE over many fill-ups. They also will tell me the expected range remaining based on how many gallons are in the tank, really no different than how many miles an EV may travel knowing how much battery charge is existing.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I don't think obfuscation is the answer to part of the population possibly not having the proper grasp of a given unit of measure that they should, by all accounts, be very familiar with, given they deal with it monthly. Dumbing things down and in turn making things less accurate to me doesn't seem like the right approach.

Come on ... haven't you ever watched the movie "Idiocracy".

 

[OVERKILL]

Come on ... haven't you ever watched the movie "Idiocracy".

I have, it's an epic warning sign, lol It should not have been that close to a documentary

 

[ZeeOSix]

Maybe the ICE car makers should remove the MPG and Range readouts and just show what percentage the gas tank is filled (like percent battery charge on an EV). Then the driver can just do the math to figure out how far he can go, lol.