Dismantling an engine is not necessary to determine that 4.6's require thin oil. The timing chains are tensioned by oil pressure and if the oil is too thick you can hear the chains flopping around for seconds until the oil pressure goes up. The chains will thrash themselves to pieces if you let them flop like they will with a 10w- or heavier at sub 0 temps.
Good Article regarding viscosity
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Has anyone actually seen data that shows the difference in fuel economy between a 5W-20 and a 5W-30... or even a 5W-40? I can't imagine it's significant at the owner level, but perhaps only when considered in the realm of CAFE standards. Which do you think is MOST important to them? The article and many of the arguments presented here make sense with regards to the light oils being a potential problem in the wear area. Ultimately it will depend on how the vehicle is used and maintained, won’t it? In some (many) situations the 5W-20 will be perfectly fine. The bottom line, though, is that the car company’s have other priorities beyond US getting 200,000 miles out of OUR engines. They know that, on average, even a peewater 5W-20 will get the car out of warranty and probably out of the first owner’s hands before it creates a problem. If it does at all. It’s up to us to evaluate our needs and driving styles, and make the appropriate choices, even if they don’t line up with their "one-size-fits-all" recommendations.
BTW, there’s way too much hand wringing going on here about warranties. I spent many years in dealerships. With a determined owner, it was often hard to deny an engine warranty claim on a rig that had run 30,000 miles with NO oil change, or on cars that had been beaten to death. If you choose a high quality, brand name 5W-30 or even a 10W-30 instead of a 5W-20, follow a reasonable OCI and have an engine problem, you have the resources right here to prove it wasn’t the oil’s fault. The odds are good they won’t even check unless you’ve got a, "Joe’s Homebrewed Motor Oil" sign on your door. Dealers can talk tough about denying warranties over very minor "infractions" but seldom does it happen in my experience. If it does, you go up the food chain a notch or two and resolve the problem. Bottom line, unless there are obvious signs of abuse or neglect, you don’t have much to worry about.
BTW, there’s way too much hand wringing going on here about warranties. I spent many years in dealerships. With a determined owner, it was often hard to deny an engine warranty claim on a rig that had run 30,000 miles with NO oil change, or on cars that had been beaten to death. If you choose a high quality, brand name 5W-30 or even a 10W-30 instead of a 5W-20, follow a reasonable OCI and have an engine problem, you have the resources right here to prove it wasn’t the oil’s fault. The odds are good they won’t even check unless you’ve got a, "Joe’s Homebrewed Motor Oil" sign on your door. Dealers can talk tough about denying warranties over very minor "infractions" but seldom does it happen in my experience. If it does, you go up the food chain a notch or two and resolve the problem. Bottom line, unless there are obvious signs of abuse or neglect, you don’t have much to worry about.
Great post, Jim. The only evidence I've seen for the increased fuel economy comes from the EPA in this letter. It doesn't specify how much of an increase the manufacturers were able to achieve, but clearly the impetus for thinner oils comes from overall fleet economy improvements, not greater engine life, increased OCIs, etc.
The interesting thing is that the EPA looks to be requiring oil refiners to report on sales numbers for 5W-20 oils compared to other grades. The EPA wants to ensure that the lighter weight oils are actually being used by consumers after the cars leave the showroom floor, otherwise the MPG improvements the auto manufacturers are claiming won't materialize. If the EPA starts hammering on Ford for this, expect Ford to get very nasty towards consumers on the issue. (Stuff flows downhill!)
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Sands,
What you're pointing out is a tendency to blame shift by those who's bad behavior causes problems. Their emotional instability doesn't allow them to accept responsibility for the results of their bad or immature behavior.
Expecting them to mature and practice good behavior would be an excercise in futility.
It isn't the responsible drivers that are costing us big bucks in insurance premiums. It's those that demonstrate culpable irresponsibility that are costing us a lot.
Besides, the careful and mature (not necessarily older) drivers are getting better fuel economy. We can all maximixe fuel economy by improving driving habits. It's the immature that won't bring themselves to this.
What you're pointing out is a tendency to blame shift by those who's bad behavior causes problems. Their emotional instability doesn't allow them to accept responsibility for the results of their bad or immature behavior.
Expecting them to mature and practice good behavior would be an excercise in futility.
It isn't the responsible drivers that are costing us big bucks in insurance premiums. It's those that demonstrate culpable irresponsibility that are costing us a lot.
Besides, the careful and mature (not necessarily older) drivers are getting better fuel economy. We can all maximixe fuel economy by improving driving habits. It's the immature that won't bring themselves to this.
I agree with this fullheartedly. ^
I actually have found by setting the cruise at the speed limit(or sometimes slightly lower) and enjoying the ride I save gas, have a less stressfull drive trying to pass vehicles and the time I lose is nominal compared to the normal bathroom and soda breaks I Partake in with my wife on trips. I have also bought into the fact that my transportation is not a time machine and I like to increase my odds of survival at my destination by driving at reasonable speeds to the conditions.
The logic used in that statement is false enough to discredit the article regardless of if it is good science or not.
I want to try a 5w20 in a car that can run it(the outlander) once I have logicly used my stash of bargain synthetics. Not that I expect miraculous results but to satisfy myself and put my money where my mouth is that they are good oils that produce no additonal wear.
I actually have found by setting the cruise at the speed limit(or sometimes slightly lower) and enjoying the ride I save gas, have a less stressfull drive trying to pass vehicles and the time I lose is nominal compared to the normal bathroom and soda breaks I Partake in with my wife on trips. I have also bought into the fact that my transportation is not a time machine and I like to increase my odds of survival at my destination by driving at reasonable speeds to the conditions.
The logic used in that statement is false enough to discredit the article regardless of if it is good science or not.
I want to try a 5w20 in a car that can run it(the outlander) once I have logicly used my stash of bargain synthetics. Not that I expect miraculous results but to satisfy myself and put my money where my mouth is that they are good oils that produce no additonal wear.
More often than not, the slowest drivers are the slowest thinkers, and thus require excessive amounts of time to "clue-in" or react to an unexpected situation. These are the people that cause accidents; if you're accelerating unexpectedly slow for the purpose of saving fuel, you're simply being a impedance/nuissance to people who drive 'normally'. That's how I interpret the author's POV at least. Further there are those who are automotive enthusiasts and actually like to drive, and these people like using their vehicle's acceleration in legal forms, that someone who just drives to get somewhere and drive's an appliance probably wouldnt. For the way I drive, I dont think I would trust a straight 5w-20, although admittedly I do have 5w-20 blended in my current fill
The article brings out very significant information but its conclusions seem to miss the mark. The most interesting aspect is the relationship of operating temperature and viscosity. The viscosity in an engine operating 30 degrees hotter on 5W-30 is equivalent to one 30 degrees cooler on 5W-20. That is why Honda recommends 5W-20 in a 4 cylinder Accord but 5W-30 in an Acura TSX with the same engine but tuned out with 25% more horsepower. Maybe these engine builders just might know what they are doing.
This comment might just be out of left field, but why not just use a synthetic based 0w30 weight oil, and cover most, if not all, of the bases required by the oiling system. You'll get great start-ups, 30 weight protection at temperature, and being synthetic, shearing down is less of an issue than with a blend or pure petroleum based oil.
I can't completely buy into the "thinner is better" arguement either. Engines have been being made to tighter and smaller clearances for many, many years now, but now just in the last few years, they're telling us to use 5w20 exclusively, regardless of temperature...umm...sorry, don't buy it. I would only consider a 0w20 or 5w20 in the Arctic or Antarctic Circle regions, where the temperature doesn't go above 30*F at all.
30 weight oil seems to be the happy comprimise between protection, fuel economy, and happier engines in the heat. Ok, time for my scalding now...
I can't completely buy into the "thinner is better" arguement either. Engines have been being made to tighter and smaller clearances for many, many years now, but now just in the last few years, they're telling us to use 5w20 exclusively, regardless of temperature...umm...sorry, don't buy it. I would only consider a 0w20 or 5w20 in the Arctic or Antarctic Circle regions, where the temperature doesn't go above 30*F at all.
30 weight oil seems to be the happy comprimise between protection, fuel economy, and happier engines in the heat. Ok, time for my scalding now...
hehe, i'm only 21, and I get near EPA on my old vehicle, even though I get heavy footed on a regular basis- the trick, i've found, is to drive very conservativally, when you are already stuck "in" traffic, because, heavy acceleration in these conditions, does not improve travel time at all. Then when I am on the open road or at the front of the pack off a green light, I can open up the throttle and enjoy some spirited thrashing action and rarly worry about offending anyone behind me for going too slow.
I think that many engine designs run fine on 20 weight oils, but I think driving habbits, climate, and engine life, should be taken into consideration- as already stated. Hehe..... i'm 21, wonder how many other should-be-drinking-partying age kids are on here exchanging ideas and UOAs about motor oil. hehe.
I once ran a 20w50 with 2 bottles of STP for a little while (bout 2k), probably was more like a 60 or 70 weight after all that zddp. engine didn't seem to behave any different. Sometimes I think weight is overrated.
If film strength is such a concern, why not just run a synthetic? From what I have read, it looks like synthetics have somewhere between 4 and 6 fold the film strength of dino oils? no?
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the_oil_dealer,
Your response to my post is actually appreciated by me even though you disagree with me. I take good peasure in someone proving my point. The example of 'blame shift' is real and you demonstrated a first rate example of it.
Thanks to you. You've made my day.
Moderators, please pardon my getting a little off topic here. I won't make it a habit.
Your response to my post is actually appreciated by me even though you disagree with me. I take good peasure in someone proving my point. The example of 'blame shift' is real and you demonstrated a first rate example of it.
Thanks to you. You've made my day.
Moderators, please pardon my getting a little off topic here. I won't make it a habit.
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More often than not, the slowest drivers are the slowest thinkers, and thus require excessive amounts of time to "clue-in" or react to an unexpected situation. These are the people that cause accidents; if you're accelerating unexpectedly slow for the purpose of saving fuel, you're simply being a impedance/nuissance to people who drive 'normally'.
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I don't agree. Impatience and intolerance cause of accidents ? Never heard of these 2 things causing accidents. Unfortunately, impatience and intolerance can become the norm for some. Trust this in not the case here.
Back to viscosity, Redline in Australia used to recommend 10W30 oils for the Buick V6 engine used in GM Holden commodores, currently Redline recommends 10W40 interesting shift even for high viscosity oils.
More often than not, the slowest drivers are the slowest thinkers, and thus require excessive amounts of time to "clue-in" or react to an unexpected situation. These are the people that cause accidents; if you're accelerating unexpectedly slow for the purpose of saving fuel, you're simply being a impedance/nuissance to people who drive 'normally'.
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I don't agree. Impatience and intolerance cause of accidents ? Never heard of these 2 things causing accidents. Unfortunately, impatience and intolerance can become the norm for some. Trust this in not the case here.
Back to viscosity, Redline in Australia used to recommend 10W30 oils for the Buick V6 engine used in GM Holden commodores, currently Redline recommends 10W40 interesting shift even for high viscosity oils.
5w-20 and sae 20w (20w-20) are very different oils. sae 20w just happening to be the highest vis oil that is suitable for winter use. So would that make 5w-20 really be a 5w-20w ?
Just for fun i went to castrols site and put in my current car and climate to get their oil recommendation. I then went to the castrol UK site and put in my same car and climate and got a different recommendation! Who knew i could use 10w-40 or 20w-50 in my car !?!?!
I might tend to agree with you. I've seen lots of cars go 200,000+ miles using 10w-30, 15w-40, and 20w-50. I have yet to see a car go 200,000+ miles on 5w-20! We certainly might, but until it's proven in real world test, i'll hold off on putting it in my car too
Interestingly, Castrols 0w-30 appears to be a "thicker 30" than many of the 5w-30 synthetics. While i'm not a huge castrol fan, the GC 0w-30 appears to be a very good oil for compromise situations.
I just wish the automakers would make it more clear that they are "recommending" 5w-20 for their cars for gas saving reasons, not demanding it. As long as an oil meets the correct specs (SL, SM, etc..) using 5w-30 or 10w-30 will not void the warranty.
"Just for fun i went to castrols site and put in my current car and climate to get their oil recommendation. I then went to the castrol UK site and put in my same car and climate and got a different recommendation! Who knew i could use 10w-40 or 20w-50 in my car !?!?! "
Ironicly, my Audi V6 uses an oil called SLX II in Europe for extended 30km services. That stuff has a HT/HS of 2.6. I would not be comfortable with it, but they recommend it there, the opposite of the situation with thin oils here. Another note, I don't think Audi is continuing with it in Europe, the latest specs call for 5w-40.
Ironicly, my Audi V6 uses an oil called SLX II in Europe for extended 30km services. That stuff has a HT/HS of 2.6. I would not be comfortable with it, but they recommend it there, the opposite of the situation with thin oils here. Another note, I don't think Audi is continuing with it in Europe, the latest specs call for 5w-40.
I think because a 0W-30 only occurs in synthetic form. More expensive than a simple dino 5W-30 for example.
Ford and Honda have to *demand* the use of 5W-20 because their EPA MPG numbers are based on its use. Those numbers affect their CAFE compliance, with a few points either way potentially costing them (well, Ford, really) lots of money.
If Ford said "Yeah, we ship 'em with 5W-20, but that's just a numbers game--go ahead and put in yer 10W-30 when you change the oil" the EPA would come down on them like a ton of bricks.
If Ford could get away with denying warranty claims if you use other than 5W-20, you bet they would in a heartbeat. However, I bet they'd have a darn hard time proving that a 5W-30 could cause any damage in a vehicle spec'd for 5W-20.
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