Dangers of low viscosity oils a problem waiting to happen?

[ZZman]

With some oils getting into the 0w8- and 0w-16 ranges, doesn't this leave very little protection cushion if the oils suffer viscosity loss due to something like fuel in the oil?

Could this reduced cushion of protection be made up by additives?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Yes.

I'd expect to see @kschachn at some point here if he's bored. Plenty of threads talking about the increasing importance of additives when HT/HS is below about 2.7.

 

[userfriendly]

With some oils getting into the 0w8- and 0w-16 ranges, doesn't this leave very little protection cushion if the oils suffer viscosity loss due to something like fuel in the oil?

Could this reduced cushion of protection be made up by additives?

The only additive I can think of is a litre or two of PAO 460.

 

[Bill7]

I bought a 2008 Toyota Corolla. It was the last year the Toyota Corolla was speced for 5W-30 in the owner's manual.
I escaped all the insanity of thin oils.

I use 5W-30 for all my vehicles.

 

[ATex7239]

I would think additives can only do much with over coming dilution. That said I didn’t see much difference in wear with highly fuel diluted and no longer in grade 16 vs somewhat diluted and still within grade 20, so…

 

[KevinMalone]

What a novel thought, I don't think this has ever been discussed before /s

From what I recall, *some* 0w8 oils have been formulated accordingly with additives to account for the thinner viscosity.

 

[kschachn]

Yes.

I'd expect to see @kschachn at some point here if he's bored. Plenty of threads talking about the increasing importance of additives when HT/HS is below about 2.7.

That was one of Shannow's favorite topics

 

[KrisZ]

Those aren’t thin oils at all, we still have 0w4 and 0w2 before we go into the decimals

 

[Ride_Red]

Engines are specifically designed to be compatible with the thinner oils. An example of one change is that bearing surfaces on the crank shaft are larger in engines that are designed for 0W-16 or 0W-8 vs a similar engine designed for 5W-30. Although the oil film may be weaker on that bearing surface, there is a larger surface area bearing the load to make up for it. You can still run a thicker oil in the new engines, but you shouldn't run the thinner oils in an older engine.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Those aren’t thin oils at all, we still have 0w4 and 0w2 before we go into the decimals

Psh, IIRC HPL or @RDY4WAR said Pro Stock oil has been 0w2 for awhile.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I would think additives can only do much with over coming dilution. That said I didn’t see much difference in wear with highly fuel diluted and no longer in grade 16 vs somewhat diluted and still within grade 20, so…

View attachment 244157

Well... if you want to make assumptions made on poor premises, "technically" that 1.1cSt increase in viscosity netted you a >50% reduction in wear since you went an additional 12% further distance and iron and lead were cut in half. But you could also make a spurious assumption (based on this data, no less!) that extending your OCI decreased your fuel dilution. Heck, you could even make the claim that it was the reduction in detergents and ZDDP that caused the lower wear metals shown in your sample! At this wild *** guess stage, comparing just one sample point vs another can result in some really dumb conclusions, and nearly all of them will be false.

Preference would be to tack on a couple more consecutive runs on the 30 grade and see what levels out. It's promising, though, at least on the surface.

 

[ATex7239]

Well... if you want to make assumptions made on poor premises, "technically" that 1.1cSt increase in viscosity netted you a >50% reduction in wear since you went an additional 12% further distance and iron and lead were cut in half. But you could also make a spurious assumption (based on this data, no less!) that extending your OCI decreased your fuel dilution. Heck, you could even make the claim that it was the reduction in detergents and ZDDP that caused the lower wear metals shown in your sample! At this wild *** guess stage, comparing just one sample point vs another can result in some really dumb conclusions, and nearly all of them will be false.

Preference would be to tack on a couple more consecutive runs on the 30 grade and see what levels out. It's promising, though, at least on the surface.

Unfortunately that one is gone (totaled) so further testing isn’t possible.

 

[OilUzer]

According to the experts, the best additive for a thin oil, is a much thicker oil. Some may argue a 50/50 mix but I prefer 0/100 i.e. all additive!

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I prefer 0/100 i.e. all additive!

Are we being trolled by the Lucas Oil customer service account?

 

[Kalle.J]

Found some night reading material regarding JASO GLV-2 (0w16 & 0w20)
Japanese going back up in film thickness again

JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel

https://jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/GEO_E2409.pdf

Share if you find something interesting.

This is what I found so far.

3.2.2 GLV-2 classification.
"Engine oil is an item that greatly contributes to reduction of CO2 emitted from internal combustion engines, and reducing viscosity is one of the effective means for such contribution. The JASO GLV-1 standard established in 2019 has become a low viscosity Automotive Gasoline Engine Oil Standard for SAE 0W-8 and 0W-12, but further reduction of viscosity is difficult to achieve both technology and popularization. Under such circumstances, there were requests from enterprises belonging to the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association and the Petroleum Association of Japan, and lubricant- related enterprises, and there was a proposal of a new Automotive Gasoline Engine Oil Standard in terms of fuel saving. It is expected that this technology would further improve fuel efficiency by maintaining the viscosity of the conventional SAE20 and SAE16 at high temperatures, and reducing the viscosity in the middle and low temperature region while securing oil pressure and reliability (oil film). Therefore, there has been a demand to add a new classification to JASO M 364. Because of this background, it was determined to establish the Automotive Gasoline Engine Oil Standard for low-viscosity oils in Japan and the quality standard was established through the following process."

 

[MolaKule]

I have stated this before, but there are two or more approaches to the formulation of those low viscosity engine oils.

1) Most engine oil formulations are composed of two or more base oils of two or more different Groups and of two or more different viscosities. Higher viscosity PAO's (such as Metallocene PAO's) or specialty Group V base oils can be added in very small percentages to mitigate fuel dilution and reduce wear (through thicker oil films at high temps),

2) Special additive compounds can be included to reduce wear, oxidation and deal with fuel dilution,

3) Recently developed coatings on engine friction surfaces that work with and are compatible with the above two items,

4) A combination of the above three.

"ASSUMING" dangers does not take into account those mitigation efforts listed above and is a gross oversimplification.

 

[CKN]

I bought a 2008 Toyota Corolla. It was the last year the Toyota Corolla was speced for 5W-30 in the owner's manual.
I escaped all the insanity of thin oils.

I use 5W-30 for all my vehicles.

There is no insanity and I have proved it pulling 5,000 pounds up 9,000 foot mountain passes in 90plus degree weather running 0w/20. Don't think a Corolla will see those conditions....

 

[wemay]

I have stated this before, but there are two or more approaches to the formulation of those low viscosity engine oils.

1) Most engine oil formulations are composed of two or more base oils of of two or more different Groups and of two or more different viscosities. Higher viscosity PAO's (such as Metallocene PAO's) or specialty Group V base oils can be added in very small percentages to mitigate fuel dilution and reduce wear (through thicker oil films at high temps),

2) Special additive compounds can be included to reduce wear, oxidation and deal with fuel dilution,

3) Recently developed coatings on engine friction surfaces that work with and are compatible with the above two items,

4) A combination of the above three.

"ASSUMING" dangers does not take into account those mitigation efforts listed above and is a gross oversimplification.

This

 

[wemay]

@MolaKule has the best answer in this thread, IMO.
Additionally, base oil quality, additive package, and proper oil level also play significant roles in maintaining engine health.

 

[gfh77665]

There is no insanity and I have proved it pulling 5,000 pounds up 9,000 foot mountain passes in 90plus degree weather running 0w/20. Don't think a Corolla will see those conditions....

I would not expect any vehicle to blow up by doing that, but that anecdotal experience is not proof in anyway that thin oils are optimal.

I could start my car and drive it just 100 ft. a day and it would still last for years, but extreme short tripping would still be bad for it for example.