Going out on a limb with a new article...

[macarose]

Thank you very much for the great support, and most of all thanks to the guy way up in the bleachers who still remembers who I am.

I've been busy writing up articles in a variety of places. Then there's also this project which has apparently caught a bit of fire.

http://tradeinqualityindex.com/

We're in year three of the study. It's been a wonderful experience to make this a reality. Hopefully it will be a hub for a new site that will have a lot of fresh content for folks who want insight from experts instead of the "blah blah" bloggers of the day. It already had 180k unique visitors last month and we have yet to create a real community!

Thanks for everything folks. Give me a PM if you ever need anything car related.

 

[turtlevette]

You don't believe in seal conditioners. So you think Maxlife and similar HM oils are snake oil too?

When these additives are a part of the normal package on motor oil its ok, but an owner can't make a decision to use one to solve a problem?

 

[macarose]

No turtlevette. My gripe is with third parties who supposedly either improve crankcase oils like Valvoline Maxlife, or offer some kind of ridiculous claim that isn't based in scientific reality.

The best oil you can put in your car is one specifically designed to handle the viscosity and unique needs of your vehicle. Not something that is slick, mysterious, or "lube" oriented.

Hope this helps.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: macarose


The best oil you can put in your car is one specifically designed to handle the viscosity and unique needs of your vehicle. Not something that is slick, mysterious, or "lube" oriented.



Yes.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: macarose


Hope this helps.



No it doesn't. I'll continue to use whatever additives I need and so will millions of others.

Who's going to pull an engine on an old car to replace a rear main. Get real.

 

[jk_636]

Well written article.

I disagree with most of everything in it, but I can appreciate a well constructed peice of literature.

 

[tenderloin]

If the cheapest SN rated oil will do the trick (or whatever mfg. spec requires) or not much difference between them, the "oil" portion of this board would seem much ado about nothing? The additives in the lowest priced SN oil are the best that oil additive companies can come up with...or are they a compromise to reach a performance standard but at a certain price point? With everything known by man in chemistry, there are no additional additives that will out perform the additives in the least expensive SN or other mfg. spec. oils or help out the base oil? Just asking.... Also how many years went by before high mileage oils came out? As far as I can see, many HM oils have helped a lot of peoples older vehicles. Why would you not consider seal additives snake oil..since for so many years they were not in oil and also are not what car companies recommend?

 

[tenderloin]

BTW There are many reputable independent shops who use BG, Lubegard or other "snake oil" products. Are fuel additives, especially the ones with PEA snake oil as well? Where do you draw the line product wise outside of blanket statements?

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
With everything known by man in chemistry, there are no additional additives that will out perform the additives in the least expensive SN or other mfg. spec. oils or help out the base oil? Just asking.... Also how many years went by before high mileage oils came out? As far as I can see, many HM oils have helped a lot of peoples older vehicles. Why would you not consider seal additives snake oil..since for so many years they were not in oil and also are not what car companies recommend?


1.) Seal conditioners have been included in motor oils over the last 60 years, with chemistries such as,

Beta-thiopropionitriles, di(2-ethylhexyl)-adipates, tris (C8-C24 hydrocarbyl) phosphites, Bis(2-ethylhexyl) ester phosphoric acids, Dihexyl Phthalate esters, and the azelamides such as
N,N'-dimethyl-N,N'-dihexylazelamide, N,N'-dimethyl-N,N'-di2-ethylhexylazelamide, N,N'-dimethyl-N,N'-di-2-ethylhexylsebacamide.

2.) How can the average driver, without any training in lubricant chemistry, determine the efficacy of any additive?

Now, there are engine cleaners and flushes out there, such as Kreen, Rislone Engine Cleaner, etc, that appear to clean a sludged, abused engine, but these are to be used for short term cleaning, and not to be used as an additional oil additive.

Quote:
With everything known by man in chemistry, [are] there no [known] additional additives that will out perform the additives in the least expensive SN or other mfg. spec. oils or help out the base oil?


If you or anyone else knows of additional chemistries that will outperform today's commercial additive packages, I will help you patent those.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: tenderloin
BTW There are many reputable independent shops who use BG, Lubegard or other "snake oil" products. Are fuel additives, especially the ones with PEA snake oil as well? Where do you draw the line product wise outside of blanket statements?


And they charge you 200% over their supplier prices to add a handsome profit to their bottom lines.

 

[tenderloin]

Molakule
The author wrote "There isn’t a single auto repair shop I know of that stocks these items"..While he may not know of any, there are plenty of quality shops that do. Regarding mark ups...Come on...that applies to nearly every product they use.

Concerning your previous comment.. I was referring to the marketing of special "High mileage" oils by the oil companies. I would think you would admit that these oils have different or have more seal conditioners than their "regular" counter parts but do they do more in stopping leaks or are they just another snake oil product?

Concerning how the average driver can determine the efficacy of a additive is no more/less than they know by just using oil. You put it in, your car doesn't break down..it must be good. How many know about sludge build up due to poor engine design and that by using a good quality synthetic oil for an example may eliminate or delay the sludge build up? Until they experience a problem, then the oil they are using is just fine. Meets specs. Good as the rest. No need for anything more/better. Really?

A company even the big ones put up comparison charts that show that not only that their product works, but works better than company XYZ's product. Many additive companies do the same thing..their product added to oil vs oil only. Big companies tell the truth...smaller ones lie? All stretch the truth?

You mentioned Rislone... They have products you put in to replace a qt. of oil or as a top off and you leave it in the engine during the OCI for cleaning etc.. Snake oil?

Many moons ago you had your own line of gear oils which I was fortunate to be able to purchase. When you put them up for sale did you stretch the truth about their quality/benefits? You know what you put in them. Were they no better than the minimum spec products? I believed them to be top notch (still do)..I don't believe you were caught up in the marketing hype of your product. Point being..IMO there can be quality products better than the minimum spec products.

If you claim that the add packages are as good as they can be made, who am I to argue with an expert like you? You have any you like better than others since there are differences between brands? Thanks for your insight.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: tenderloin

Concerning your previous comment.. I was referring to the marketing of special "High mileage" oils by the oil companies. I would think you would admit that these oils have different or have more seal conditioners than their "regular" counter parts but do they do more in stopping leaks or are they just another snake oil product?


Huge difference between an oil backed by millions of research dollars and top notch chemists with mfg standards to meet and a third party additive that hasn't, don't you think?

 

[tenderloin]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: tenderloin

Concerning your previous comment.. I was referring to the marketing of special "High mileage" oils by the oil companies. I would think you would admit that these oils have different or have more seal conditioners than their "regular" counter parts but do they do more in stopping leaks or are they just another snake oil product?


Huge difference between an oil backed by millions of research dollars and top notch chemists with mfg standards to meet and a third party additive that hasn't, don't you think?


I believe Quaker State had Slick 50 in their oil. Valvoline has had many extra additive products over the years. When do you believe them that oil is oil and if it meets specs it is good enough?

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
I believe Quaker State had Slick 50 in their oil.


They did not.

Slick 50 was another income stream.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Concerning your previous comment.. I was referring to the marketing of special "High mileage" oils by the oil companies. I would think you would admit that these oils have different or have more seal conditioners than their "regular" counter parts but do they do more in stopping leaks or are they just another snake oil product?


And my point was that there are no snake oils included in HM oils, so one cannot make a case that because HM oils, that have slightly elevated levels of SC's, is a valid reason for using snake oils.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
You mentioned Rislone... They have products you put in to replace a qt. of oil or as a top off and you leave it in the engine during the OCI for cleaning etc.. Snake oil?



Here is what I stated:

Quote:
Now, there are engine cleaners and flushes out there, such as Kreen, Rislone Engine Cleaner, etc, that appear to clean a sludged, abused engine, but these are to be used for short term cleaning, and not to be used as an additional oil additive.


Notice the qualification,
Quote:
...but these are to be used for short term cleaning, and not to be used as an additional oil additive.


I,E., use it as a flush. A flush is considered a short term chemical cleaning process, and I don't consider these chemicals as improvements to a commercially formulated engine oil.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Concerning how the average driver can determine the efficacy of a additive is no more/less than they know by just using oil. You put it in, your car doesn't break down..it must be good. How many know about sludge build up due to poor engine design and that by using a good quality synthetic oil for an example may eliminate or delay the sludge build up? Until they experience a problem, then the oil they are using is just fine. Meets specs. Good as the rest. No need for anything more/better. Really?


The additive makers prey on people's ignorance since they promise certain miracles in a can.

As I stated before, we'll make millions on the patents if you know of a new engine oil additive package that meet all OEM specs and last 150k, or come up with an engine design that produces no oil degradation.

 

[CourierDriver]

One tsp of MMO in my coffee, with cream,,,not recommended.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Many moons ago you had your own line of gear oils which I was fortunate to be able to purchase. When you put them up for sale did you stretch the truth about their quality/benefits? You know what you put in them. Were they no better than the minimum spec products? I believed them to be top notch (still do)..I don't believe you were caught up in the marketing hype of your product. Point being..IMO there can be quality products better than the minimum spec products.


First of all, thanks for buying them. Actually, I had about 60 products beyond gear oils.

Most of the products were the results of the experience from local racing teams, a lot of testing and reformulation, and using what I thought were the best components.

Since my marketing was done by another trusted person, and since I couldn't provide the volume of the larger marketers, I kept the business marketing as low key as possible until I could expand the business.

Anytime another chemistry came on the market it was tested and either included or rejected, and the additive makers are doing the same thing, always improving.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
If you claim that the add packages are as good as they can be made, who am I to argue with an expert like you? You have any you like better than others since there are differences between brands? Thanks for your insight.


I am not sure if that is a complementary comment or a dig, but I'll take that as a complement.

I do not have all the answers. There are other chemists and formulators here at BITOG that have a vast pool of knowledge and provide excellent, factual answers.

I speak from my practical experiences as a formulator and as a dreaded

academic, and attempt to educate. Sometimes education involves the dispelling of myths and correcting false internet information.

I do not endorse any product since I consult to companies who are in competition with one another.

Quote:
Anytime another chemistry came on the market it was tested and either included or rejected, and the commercial additive makers are doing the same thing, always improving.