GM to partner with China

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


I don't have the time or desire to research the others but.... it may be more significant than GM's.



This about sums up your objectivity here...you dont have the time, energy or apparent ability to decipher fact from fiction, yet you still come to a possible conclusion. Whatever.

It really is rich that you moved the goal posts yet again. This time taking the time to actually do a google search and regurgitate the Toyota "created" jobs and payroll figures...Do you really want to go there? Talking about total payrolls, total pension payments, total infrastructure investments, total purchasing expense numbers...you cant be serious. You are digging a hole going there, those numbers only increase in the domestics favor at an exponential rate. The retiree benefits alone that GM pays yearly amount to close to 6 billion dollars. The number of "created" jobs by Ford and GM in the states they invest in is in the millions...keep digging man.


Are these the same retiree benefits that caused them to go bankrupt?

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
I did just look on the Toyota website. They are obviously not an independant 3rd party but they state that in the US they have created over 365,000 jobs, invested $18B, have 1506 dealers and have over $24B in purchasing. Again, very impressive numbers.


Created? Yes. So, Toyota directly employs 30,000 Americans, and indirectly creates 365,000 jobs. Roughly 12x the number of indirect vs direct. So applying that same percentage to GM, that gives us 1,727,666 jobs indirectly created by GM. Which likely isn't far off.

I'm FAR from a GM apologist and think the bailout was a huge scam levied on both the American and Canadian tax payers. However, even I am not blind to the fact that GM employs an obscene number of people. GM and Ford together spend more, and employ more than all the imports combined.


Never said they didn't. Just pointing out that Honda and Toyota have made significant contributions to the US economy for decades.

 

[Cardinal49]

Getting back to the original topic. If GM is funded by the US Government is it fair to say that the US Government is ivesting in Chinese plants?

 

[KrisZ]

Cardinal49, I hate to burst your bubble, but Japanese are partnering up with Chinese as well.

Honda has two partnerships in China, it's a huge market that is blocked to the outsiders unless they have a partnership with a Chinese company. Why can't we do this as well?

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/09...9c-brand-ciimo/

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Cardinal49, I hate to burst your bubble, but Japanese are partnering up with Chinese as well.

Honda has two partnerships in China, it's a huge market that is blocked to the outsiders unless they have a partnership with a Chinese company. Why can't we do this as well?

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/09...9c-brand-ciimo/



Again people putting words in my mouth. Never said Honda/Toyota were not in China. I am well aware of the business requirements to participate in the Chinese markets. They extend far beyond manufacturing. Did you know that the Chinese government even gets a piece of all credit card transactions in that country?

I stated earlier that I support GM investing in China. China is the largest car market by far and GM's largest market (they sell more cars in China than in the US). Based on the $50B in government loans and the forgiveness of $30B in GM debt, is GM using US Government money to invest in China?

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


I don't have the time or desire to research the others but.... it may be more significant than GM's.



This about sums up your objectivity here...you dont have the time, energy or apparent ability to decipher fact from fiction, yet you still come to a possible conclusion. Whatever.



Are these the same retiree benefits that caused them to go bankrupt?


Again with the BK...lol...I'll say this, these are the same retirees that are still getting their pension and healthcare benefits payed by GM out of their operating capital, instead of being absorbed by the PBGC and the taxpayers because GM is still in business.

BTW...Your math on the BK situation is all screwed up. I'm beginning to understand why you just ignore facts.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


Never said they didn't. Just pointing out that Honda and Toyota have made significant contributions to the US economy for decades.


Well, you never gave any of us a definition of what you meant by "commitment to the US", so I hold out little hope for this request....But could you please define "significant"?

You do realize that the captital investments that Toyota lists for their US operations of 18 billion, includes every infrastructure/plant/real estate investment they have made here since 1957 right? Sooo...in 54 years Toyota has invested a total of 18 billion in US plants and infrastructure...whats that...about 1/3 billion per year on average? You cant be serious, if thats significant, then what adjective would you use to describe the 100's of billions of GM and Ford investment here over the same time frame...both of whom average roughly between 2 and 4 billion per year in infrastructure and plant investments?

And just so those who really care about the numbers can see for themselves...please review page 5 and 6 of this Toyota document....it clearly defines the infrastructure investments and the year it was made....

Toyota 2011 US Operations Brochure

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


I don't have the time or desire to research the others but.... it may be more significant than GM's.



This about sums up your objectivity here...you dont have the time, energy or apparent ability to decipher fact from fiction, yet you still come to a possible conclusion. Whatever.



Are these the same retiree benefits that caused them to go bankrupt?


Again with the BK...lol...I'll say this, these are the same retirees that are still getting their pension and healthcare benefits payed by GM out of their operating capital, instead of being absorbed by the PBGC and the taxpayers because GM is still in business.

BTW...Your math on the BK situation is all screwed up. I'm beginning to understand why you just ignore facts.


Try to focus on what I write, not what you think you see. One of the key drivers of the bankruptcy was the high pension costs for the retirees, was it not?

What is incorrect with the BK situation? Give me the facts. Did GM not receive a loan from the government for about $6B? Did they not receives TARP funds of about $50B? Did GM not have a big press release declaring that they are paying back the US Government the loan "paid in full" with interest when in reality they took the money from the TARP funds? Is it not true that remaining TARP funds are still invested in GM. Is it not true that GM would be dead and buried if the US (and Canadian) governments did not make special concessions with the bankruptcy court, allow $30B in debt to be removed from the books, provide $14B in tax credits and give $50B in TARP funds?

GM has US Government money. This money allows GM to exist today. I actually support this. It has saved thousands of jobs and I am sure the economies in many cities and states. I also beleive there are national security issues at play as well. Any investment GM is making is because of the US taxpayer whether it is here in the US or China.

I am one of the 50% of Americans that pay Federal Taxes. So that would make me a part owner of GM. If you are happy GM is still around you should thank me. If you work for GM you should call me sir.

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


Never said they didn't. Just pointing out that Honda and Toyota have made significant contributions to the US economy for decades.


Well, you never gave any of us a definition of what you meant by "commitment to the US", so I hold out little hope for this request....But could you please define "significant"?

You do realize that the captital investments that Toyota lists for their US operations of 18 billion, includes every infrastructure/plant/real estate investment they have made here since 1957 right? Sooo...in 54 years Toyota has invested a total of 18 billion in US plants and infrastructure...whats that...about 1/3 billion per year on average? You cant be serious, if thats significant, then what adjective would you use to describe the 100's of billions of GM and Ford investment here over the same time frame...both of whom average roughly between 2 and 4 billion per year in infrastructure and plant investments?

And just so those who really care about the numbers can see for themselves...please review page 5 and 6 of this Toyota document....it clearly defines the infrastructure investments and the year it was made....

Toyota 2011 US Operations Brochure



I think the $18B Toyota quotes is pretty significant. I am sure the employees that work for Toyota, the towns that their plants are located in and their dealers would agree. However, this is much less than the more significant amount the US Government had to pay to bailout GM.

It looks like Toyota can capture and retain 15% of the US market share, build the "most American made" car and provide tens of thousands of jobs for only $18B while GM needed to spend "hundreds of billions" to capture 19% of the US market share. No wonder they went bankrupt.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49

I disagree. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Subaru, Hyundai, etc have also invested billions in the US. All of these companies, as well as GM and Ford need to do so to compete effectively in the US market.

I do not beleive that GM or Ford's commitment to the US is any greater than the companies I listed above.



You see what you want to see. Never mentioned investment or Canada. Your perception does not make it a reality.


What did you mean by "commitment to the US" outside of money invested here and jobs provided here?

Maybe if you take the time to defend your previous misstatements, I might be bothered to entertain your BK ramblings...as it is, you've already made clear you dont care about my opinion or any of the facts I post or link to...so whats the point really?

Sir?...You really are a condescending prat aren't you?

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


I think the $18B Toyota quotes is pretty significant. I am sure the employees that work for Toyota, the towns that their plants are located in and their dealers would agree. However, this is much less than the more significant amount the US Government had to pay to bailout GM.

It looks like Toyota can capture and retain 15% of the US market share, build the "most American made" car and provide tens of thousands of jobs for only $18B while GM needed to spend "hundreds of billions" to capture 19% of the US market share. No wonder they went bankrupt.


Yeah...lol...it's all about the difference in efficiencies...lol...if you knew what you were talking about, you would realize how silly that sounds.

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


I think the $18B Toyota quotes is pretty significant. I am sure the employees that work for Toyota, the towns that their plants are located in and their dealers would agree. However, this is much less than the more significant amount the US Government had to pay to bailout GM.

It looks like Toyota can capture and retain 15% of the US market share, build the "most American made" car and provide tens of thousands of jobs for only $18B while GM needed to spend "hundreds of billions" to capture 19% of the US market share. No wonder they went bankrupt.


Yeah...lol...it's all about the difference in efficiencies...lol...if you knew what you were talking about, you would realize how silly that sounds.



Again .......sarcasm

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49

I disagree. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Subaru, Hyundai, etc have also invested billions in the US. All of these companies, as well as GM and Ford need to do so to compete effectively in the US market.

I do not beleive that GM or Ford's commitment to the US is any greater than the companies I listed above.



You see what you want to see. Never mentioned investment or Canada. Your perception does not make it a reality.


What did you mean by "commitment to the US" outside of money invested here and jobs provided here?

Maybe if you take the time to defend your previous misstatements, I might be bothered to entertain your BK ramblings...as it is, you've already made clear you dont care about my opinion or any of the facts I post or link to...so whats the point really?

Sir?...You really are a condescending prat aren't you?


I think I have been called worse. However, I am not quite sure what a prat is. Give me a second to check the dictionary



Yup, I have been called much worse.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: NateDN10
Quote:
As expected, GM will bring to the table much of the needed technical expertise and its global network, with SAIC Motor contributing its knowledge of the domestic market and distribution channels.

Note to everyone hating on China and GM: This is all for Chinese consumption! Not about building GM cars for US consumption in China.


Yeah, right... How long until WM starts marketing this junk in the USA? Unfortunately I doubt very long...

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49

I disagree. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Subaru, Hyundai, etc have also invested billions in the US. All of these companies, as well as GM and Ford need to do so to compete effectively in the US market.

I do not beleive that GM or Ford's commitment to the US is any greater than the companies I listed above.



You see what you want to see. Never mentioned investment or Canada. Your perception does not make it a reality.


What did you mean by "commitment to the US" outside of money invested here and jobs provided here?

Maybe if you take the time to defend your previous misstatements, I might be bothered to entertain your BK ramblings...as it is, you've already made clear you dont care about my opinion or any of the facts I post or link to...so whats the point really?

Sir?...You really are a condescending prat aren't you?


I think I have been called worse. However, I am not quite sure what a prat is. Give me a second to check the dictionary



Yup, I have been called much worse.


You really are a sarcastic, superior, prat, I'd call you worse but I'd like to not be banned.

You said earlier that GM, Ford have not invested as much in the US as Honda and Toyota have. We've (LS2JSTS in particular) have thoroughly disproved that. But instead of acknowledging you were wrong, you just sit there repeatedly typing out these sarcastic replies, avoiding the topic.

Would you agree that GM will be unable to pay back it's loans to the US government until it has built up enough cash to do so, and it's stock value goes up? Well then, they have to invest. China is a huge market, and potentially very lucrative. If people want GM to pay back their loans, they should stop complaining about them investing there.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: NateDN10
Quote:
As expected, GM will bring to the table much of the needed technical expertise and its global network, with SAIC Motor contributing its knowledge of the domestic market and distribution channels.

Note to everyone hating on China and GM: This is all for Chinese consumption! Not about building GM cars for US consumption in China.


Yeah, right... How long until WM starts marketing this junk in the USA? Unfortunately I doubt very long...


Most people I talk to already hate how all computers, are made in china. I think most people would absolutely balk at an entire CAR made in china. I'm also pretty sure the news would pick it up.

 

[Cardinal49]

Nick, don't tell me you can't read either. Where did I say Honda and Toyota invested more than GM or Ford? Did I not say multiple times that I support GM investing in China? Did I not say that I supported the bailout? Come on, read what I posted not what you assume I posted.

I don't know if GM can ever pay back the US Government. Many financial experts have their doubts given the size of the investment. I think it would be great if they could.

I am only a prat (I learned a new word today) when I need to be.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


I don't have the time or desire to research the others but.... it may be more significant than GM's.



This about sums up your objectivity here...you dont have the time, energy or apparent ability to decipher fact from fiction, yet you still come to a possible conclusion. Whatever.

It really is rich that you moved the goal posts yet again. This time taking the time to actually do a google search and regurgitate the Toyota "created" jobs and payroll figures...Do you really want to go there? Talking about total payrolls, total pension payments, total infrastructure investments, total purchasing expense numbers...you cant be serious. You are digging a hole going there, those numbers only increase in the domestics favor at an exponential rate. The retiree benefits alone that GM pays yearly amount to close to 6 billion dollars. The number of "created" jobs by Ford and GM in the states they invest in is in the millions...keep digging man.


Are these the same retiree benefits that caused them to go bankrupt?


No, half of the US market share being lost to foreign automakers and several other reasons was the cause. So your original premise that the domestic aren't loyal to US is backwards. You need to get your attribution or blame correct. Consumers weren't loyal to the domestics. Many of these foreign automakers have pensions, unions, government supported healthcare and similar pay structure in their home countries as our domestics. But the transplants in the US operate at lower compensation scale. Not to mention the transplants received significant subsidies sometimes in the 100's of millions to set up shop in the US. But I guess according to you lower employee compensation is equivalent to higher. If the transplants are not investing in the workforce as much where is equivalent and significant investment you claim?

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
I did just look on the Toyota website. They are obviously not an independant 3rd party but they state that in the US they have created over 365,000 jobs, invested $18B, have 1506 dealers and have over $24B in purchasing. Again, very impressive numbers.


Created? Yes. So, Toyota directly employs 30,000 Americans, and indirectly creates 365,000 jobs. Roughly 12x the number of indirect vs direct. So applying that same percentage to GM, that gives us 1,727,666 jobs indirectly created by GM. Which likely isn't far off.

I'm FAR from a GM apologist and think the bailout was a huge scam levied on both the American and Canadian tax payers. However, even I am not blind to the fact that GM employs an obscene number of people. GM and Ford together spend more, and employ more than all the imports combined.


Never said they didn't. Just pointing out that Honda and Toyota have made significant contributions to the US economy for decades.


No it's insignificant contributions relative to domestics. No net gain but a net loss. You simply persist in calling a net loss a gain and a contribution. You have it backwards. The US has been making significant contribution the the Japanese economy, while they lock us out of their market.

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


I don't have the time or desire to research the others but.... it may be more significant than GM's.



This about sums up your objectivity here...you dont have the time, energy or apparent ability to decipher fact from fiction, yet you still come to a possible conclusion. Whatever.

It really is rich that you moved the goal posts yet again. This time taking the time to actually do a google search and regurgitate the Toyota "created" jobs and payroll figures...Do you really want to go there? Talking about total payrolls, total pension payments, total infrastructure investments, total purchasing expense numbers...you cant be serious. You are digging a hole going there, those numbers only increase in the domestics favor at an exponential rate. The retiree benefits alone that GM pays yearly amount to close to 6 billion dollars. The number of "created" jobs by Ford and GM in the states they invest in is in the millions...keep digging man.


Are these the same retiree benefits that caused them to go bankrupt?


No, half of the US market share being lost to foreign automakers and several other reasons was the cause. So your original premise that the domestic aren't loyal to US is backwards. You need to get your attribution or blame correct. Consumers weren't loyal to the domestics. Many of these foreign automakers have pensions, unions, government supported healthcare and similar pay structure in their home countries as our domestics. But the transplants in the US operate at lower compensation scale. Not to mention the transplants received significant subsidies sometimes in the 100's of millions to set up shop in the US. But I guess according to you lower employee compensation is equivalent to higher. If the transplants are not investing in the workforce as much where is equivalent and significant investment you claim?


Consumers were loyal to the domestics for many years but poorly designed vehicles, arrogant dealers, sub-par reliability, etc drove them away. They have little reason to come back unless GM can start making products that are as good our better then the competition. They are finally turning out some nice vehicles so maybe they will win back a few of their former customers.