GM to partner with China

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: Cardinal49

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


This goes back to one of the previous threads about domestic vs, foreign. All car companies are global. There is no domestic vs. foreign. GM has no loyalty to the "buy American crowd". They will show the Chevy commercial with John Mellancamp while they invest billions in creating Chinese jobs. I am not bashing GM, this is just reality. Buyers need to purchase the vehicle that best fits their needs and not worry about domestic vs. foreign because the manufacturers don't care.


Claiming GM has no loyalty to their home market is pure rubbish...and trying to prove it on the back of a couple billion dollar investment in China is a false measurement at best. Sure GM is investing a couple billion in China to serve their huge market, but I guess you dont count the billions GM has invested here in the States over the same time frame? GM's investment in the US/Canada over the last two years has exceeded 6 billion dollars.....

12/7/09 GM Invests 336 Million at Detroit-Hamtramck Plant

1/26/10 GM Invests 246 Million in Baltimore Electric Motors/Hybrid Components

4/27/10 GM Invests 890 Million at 5 Engi...nce and Bedford

4/21/10 GM Invests 257 Million in Fairfax and Hamtramck to support next gen Malibu

8/18/10 GM Invests additional 20 Million in Bay City

9/17/10 GM Invests 483 Million at Spring Hill Engine

9/29/10 GM Invests additional 23.5 Million in Baltimore

10/28/10 GM Invests 190 Million at Lansing Grand River Plant

10/20/10 GM Invests 37 Million in Lansing Delta Twp Plant

10/7/10 GM Invests 145 Million at Orion Assembly

11/24/10 GM Invests additional 163 Million at Flint Engine

3/30/11 GM Invests 30 Million at Pontiac Stamping

4/12/11 GM Invests 100 Million at Rochester Operations

5/31/11 GM Lansing Grand River gets Additional 88 Million Investment

5/26/11 GM Invests 331 Million in Arlington Assembly

5/13/11 GM Invests Additional 109 Million at Flint Engine and Bay City Components

5/4/11 GM Invests 131 Million at Bowling Green Assembly

6/13/11 GM Invests 20 Million at Fairfax Assembly

6/10/11 GM Invests additional 47 Million at Fairfax Powertrain

6/8/11 GM Invests 49 Million at Bedford Powertrain

6/6/11 GM Invests 130 Million at Warren Tech Center

7/18/11 GM Invests 328 Million at Flint Assembly

7/12/11 GM Invests Total of 287 Million at Toledo Transmission


...ftr, a similar list could be put together for Ford as well, in my book this qualifies as meeting a "higher standard"











I disagree. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Subaru, Hyundai, etc have also invested billions in the US. All of these companies, as well as GM and Ford need to do so to compete effectively in the US market.

I do not beleive that GM or Ford's commitment to the US is any greater than the companies I listed above.

I fully support people buying what best suits their needs. If they have had years of wonderful service from GM that is great. If their family member works at the Ford plant and they want to buy a Ford, I applaud that. I also support the family that lives in Alabama buying a Honda to support their local economy or a guy that buys a Fiat from their brother-in-law that works in a Fiat dealer.

I do think it is naive for a buyer to purchase a GM or Ford with the belief that they are being "good Americans". I am convinced that GM does not have the same loyalty to these buyers.

 

[artificialist]

Many times job losses are not created by production moved to China, instead, jobs are lost because in order to produce things in the USA at a good profit, people get replaced with machines.

Sure, tariffs can be used to reduce outsourcing, but who can stop the machines? Also, if it wasn't for replacing people with machines, most cars would be like buying a Rolls Royce or a Ferrari.

Anyway, tariffs will not cure the loss of jobs in the USA. It was tried in the 1930s, and there was even more unemployment.

I have a problem with the companies getting handouts because I never get a protected $80,000 per year job even though I work in the car business.

This idea of China being an unlimited source of cheap labor, careless treatment of the environment, and cheap money is false. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, most people were told that Japan was going to be an unlimited supply of cheap stuff. What stops China from eventually becoming the same thing?

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


This goes back to one of the previous threads about domestic vs, foreign. All car companies are global. There is no domestic vs. foreign. GM has no loyalty to the "buy American crowd". They will show the Chevy commercial with John Mellancamp while they invest billions in creating Chinese jobs. I am not bashing GM, this is just reality. Buyers need to purchase the vehicle that best fits their needs and not worry about domestic vs. foreign because the manufacturers don't care.


Claiming GM has no loyalty to their home market is pure rubbish...and trying to prove it on the back of a couple billion dollar investment in China is a false measurement at best. Sure GM is investing a couple billion in China to serve their huge market, but I guess you dont count the billions GM has invested here in the States over the same time frame? GM's investment in the US/Canada over the last two years has exceeded 6 billion dollars.....

12/7/09 GM Invests 336 Million at Detroit-Hamtramck Plant

1/26/10 GM Invests 246 Million in Baltimore Electric Motors/Hybrid Components

4/27/10 GM Invests 890 Million at 5 Engi...nce and Bedford

4/21/10 GM Invests 257 Million in Fairfax and Hamtramck to support next gen Malibu

8/18/10 GM Invests additional 20 Million in Bay City

9/17/10 GM Invests 483 Million at Spring Hill Engine

9/29/10 GM Invests additional 23.5 Million in Baltimore

10/28/10 GM Invests 190 Million at Lansing Grand River Plant

10/20/10 GM Invests 37 Million in Lansing Delta Twp Plant

10/7/10 GM Invests 145 Million at Orion Assembly

11/24/10 GM Invests additional 163 Million at Flint Engine

3/30/11 GM Invests 30 Million at Pontiac Stamping

4/12/11 GM Invests 100 Million at Rochester Operations

5/31/11 GM Lansing Grand River gets Additional 88 Million Investment

5/26/11 GM Invests 331 Million in Arlington Assembly

5/13/11 GM Invests Additional 109 Million at Flint Engine and Bay City Components

5/4/11 GM Invests 131 Million at Bowling Green Assembly

6/13/11 GM Invests 20 Million at Fairfax Assembly

6/10/11 GM Invests additional 47 Million at Fairfax Powertrain

6/8/11 GM Invests 49 Million at Bedford Powertrain

6/6/11 GM Invests 130 Million at Warren Tech Center

7/18/11 GM Invests 328 Million at Flint Assembly

7/12/11 GM Invests Total of 287 Million at Toledo Transmission


...ftr, a similar list could be put together for Ford as well, in my book this qualifies as meeting a "higher standard"











I disagree. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Subaru, Hyundai, etc have also invested billions in the US. All of these companies, as well as GM and Ford need to do so to compete effectively in the US market.

I do not beleive that GM or Ford's commitment to the US is any greater than the companies I listed above.


Instead of claiming or believing all those foreign automaker invested the same in the US how about some numbers that prove that? Another you are forgetting is foreign makers are investing anything net anyway. They are taking domestic auto market that already existed and was being covered by Domestics. Do you not realize 100's of thousands tomillions of jobs related to this industry?

Quote:
I fully support people buying what best suits their needs. If they have had years of wonderful service from GM that is great. If their family member works at the Ford plant and they want to buy a Ford, I applaud that. I also support the family that lives in Alabama buying a Honda to support their local economy or a guy that buys a Fiat from their brother-in-law that works in a Fiat dealer.


I do agree with that to a large extent. Although it ignores the big picture somewhat. In reality most consumer who buy vehicles have no direct connection to the industry and buy what the media tells them to and not really what would suit their needs. For instance a Chevy Malibu who well suit the needs of buyers who buy foreign competitor vehicles.

Quote:
I do think it is naive for a buyer to purchase a GM or Ford with the belief that they are being "good Americans". I am convinced that GM does not have the same loyalty to these buyers.


I think it is naive to believe GM and Ford has less loyalty to Americans than do foreigners. you are arguing equivalency when it's just not there.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


This goes back to one of the previous threads about domestic vs, foreign. All car companies are global. There is no domestic vs. foreign. GM has no loyalty to the "buy American crowd". They will show the Chevy commercial with John Mellancamp while they invest billions in creating Chinese jobs. I am not bashing GM, this is just reality. Buyers need to purchase the vehicle that best fits their needs and not worry about domestic vs. foreign because the manufacturers don't care.


Claiming GM has no loyalty to their home market is pure rubbish...and trying to prove it on the back of a couple billion dollar investment in China is a false measurement at best. Sure GM is investing a couple billion in China to serve their huge market, but I guess you dont count the billions GM has invested here in the States over the same time frame? GM's investment in the US/Canada over the last two years has exceeded 6 billion dollars.....

12/7/09 GM Invests 336 Million at Detroit-Hamtramck Plant

1/26/10 GM Invests 246 Million in Baltimore Electric Motors/Hybrid Components

4/27/10 GM Invests 890 Million at 5 Engi...nce and Bedford

4/21/10 GM Invests 257 Million in Fairfax and Hamtramck to support next gen Malibu

8/18/10 GM Invests additional 20 Million in Bay City

9/17/10 GM Invests 483 Million at Spring Hill Engine

9/29/10 GM Invests additional 23.5 Million in Baltimore

10/28/10 GM Invests 190 Million at Lansing Grand River Plant

10/20/10 GM Invests 37 Million in Lansing Delta Twp Plant

10/7/10 GM Invests 145 Million at Orion Assembly

11/24/10 GM Invests additional 163 Million at Flint Engine

3/30/11 GM Invests 30 Million at Pontiac Stamping

4/12/11 GM Invests 100 Million at Rochester Operations

5/31/11 GM Lansing Grand River gets Additional 88 Million Investment

5/26/11 GM Invests 331 Million in Arlington Assembly

5/13/11 GM Invests Additional 109 Million at Flint Engine and Bay City Components

5/4/11 GM Invests 131 Million at Bowling Green Assembly

6/13/11 GM Invests 20 Million at Fairfax Assembly

6/10/11 GM Invests additional 47 Million at Fairfax Powertrain

6/8/11 GM Invests 49 Million at Bedford Powertrain

6/6/11 GM Invests 130 Million at Warren Tech Center

7/18/11 GM Invests 328 Million at Flint Assembly

7/12/11 GM Invests Total of 287 Million at Toledo Transmission


...ftr, a similar list could be put together for Ford as well, in my book this qualifies as meeting a "higher standard"











I disagree. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Subaru, Hyundai, etc have also invested billions in the US. All of these companies, as well as GM and Ford need to do so to compete effectively in the US market.

I do not beleive that GM or Ford's commitment to the US is any greater than the companies I listed above.

I fully support people buying what best suits their needs. If they have had years of wonderful service from GM that is great. If their family member works at the Ford plant and they want to buy a Ford, I applaud that. I also support the family that lives in Alabama buying a Honda to support their local economy or a guy that buys a Fiat from their brother-in-law that works in a Fiat dealer.

I do think it is naive for a buyer to purchase a GM or Ford with the belief that they are being "good Americans". I am convinced that GM does not have the same loyalty to these buyers.


You can "believe" what you want. The facts and the numbers speak a whole different truth.

Your contention that the investment in the States is similar between the transplants and the domestics is just simply wrong...if not, it would be simple for you to post links to similar investments by the transplants over the same time period...where is your list?

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

This goes back to one of the previous threads about domestic vs, foreign. All car companies are global. There is no domestic vs. foreign. GM has no loyalty to the "buy American crowd". They will show the Chevy commercial with John Mellancamp while they invest billions in creating Chinese jobs. I am not bashing GM, this is just reality. Buyers need to purchase the vehicle that best fits their needs and not worry about domestic vs. foreign because the manufacturers don't care.


Claiming GM has no loyalty to their home market is pure rubbish...and trying to prove it on the back of a couple billion dollar investment in China is a false measurement at best. Sure GM is investing a couple billion in China to serve their huge market, but I guess you dont count the billions GM has invested here in the States over the same time frame? GM's investment in the US/Canada over the last two years has exceeded 6 billion dollars.....

12/7/09 GM Invests 336 Million at Detroit-Hamtramck Plant

1/26/10 GM Invests 246 Million in Baltimore Electric Motors/Hybrid Components

4/27/10 GM Invests 890 Million at 5 Engi...nce and Bedford

4/21/10 GM Invests 257 Million in Fairfax and Hamtramck to support next gen Malibu

8/18/10 GM Invests additional 20 Million in Bay City

9/17/10 GM Invests 483 Million at Spring Hill Engine

9/29/10 GM Invests additional 23.5 Million in Baltimore

10/28/10 GM Invests 190 Million at Lansing Grand River Plant

10/20/10 GM Invests 37 Million in Lansing Delta Twp Plant

10/7/10 GM Invests 145 Million at Orion Assembly

11/24/10 GM Invests additional 163 Million at Flint Engine

3/30/11 GM Invests 30 Million at Pontiac Stamping

4/12/11 GM Invests 100 Million at Rochester Operations

5/31/11 GM Lansing Grand River gets Additional 88 Million Investment

5/26/11 GM Invests 331 Million in Arlington Assembly

5/13/11 GM Invests Additional 109 Million at Flint Engine and Bay City Components

5/4/11 GM Invests 131 Million at Bowling Green Assembly

6/13/11 GM Invests 20 Million at Fairfax Assembly

6/10/11 GM Invests additional 47 Million at Fairfax Powertrain

6/8/11 GM Invests 49 Million at Bedford Powertrain

6/6/11 GM Invests 130 Million at Warren Tech Center

7/18/11 GM Invests 328 Million at Flint Assembly

7/12/11 GM Invests Total of 287 Million at Toledo Transmission


...ftr, a similar list could be put together for Ford as well, in my book this qualifies as meeting a "higher standard"











I disagree. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Subaru, Hyundai, etc have also invested billions in the US. All of these companies, as well as GM and Ford need to do so to compete effectively in the US market.

I do not beleive that GM or Ford's commitment to the US is any greater than the companies I listed above.


Instead of claiming or believing all those foreign automaker invested the same in the US how about some numbers that prove that? Another you are forgetting is foreign makers are investing anything net anyway. They are taking domestic auto market that already existed and was being covered by Domestics. Do you not realize 100's of thousands tomillions of jobs related to this industry?

Quote:
I fully support people buying what best suits their needs. If they have had years of wonderful service from GM that is great. If their family member works at the Ford plant and they want to buy a Ford, I applaud that. I also support the family that lives in Alabama buying a Honda to support their local economy or a guy that buys a Fiat from their brother-in-law that works in a Fiat dealer.


I do agree with that to a large extent. Although it ignores the big picture somewhat. In reality most consumer who buy vehicles have no direct connection to the industry and buy what the media tells them to and not really what would suit their needs. For instance a Chevy Malibu who well suit the needs of buyers who buy foreign competitor vehicles.

Quote:
I do think it is naive for a buyer to purchase a GM or Ford with the belief that they are being "good Americans". I am convinced that GM does not have the same loyalty to these buyers.


I think it is naive to believe GM and Ford has less loyalty to Americans than do foreigners. you are arguing equivalency when it's just not there.

Not quite sure what you are asking. Do you dispue that Japanese, Korean and German manufacturers have invested billions in plants, dealers, etc in the US? I do not beleive that Honda, Toyota, etc stole these jobs away from Americans rather GM lost them due to their inability to compete effectively. I do not beleive that the media caused people to move away from GM it was it their own bad experiences with GM products and delears. I beleive that American's are smart enough to determine for themselves what car best meets their needs. I would not be so arrogant to tell someone that a Malibu is "good enough" (although the Camry tops the charts as the car with the most Americans input).

Back on topic. Our relationship with China is worrisome from an economic and national security perspective. I truly belive we need a strong policy on China from our leaders (repubs and dems). However, GM is a global company and it looks like their survival is dependant on that market. They need to be allowed to compete fairly as long they are compliant with existing laws.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


I do not beleive...
I do not beleive...
I beleive...
I truly belive...



Blah, blah blah...you are long on theory and beliefs and sorely lacking on the actual facts surrounding the issue.

You are the one who stepped into this thread and argued equivalency where none exists, the facts are out there if you care to rid yourself of beliefs and delve into the realm of reality and facts.

According to their own marketing arm, the transplants have invested a TOTAL of 28 billion in the USA over the last twenty years..a drop in the bucket compared to the investments of Ford and GM over the same time frame. Ford and GM have spent nearly half that much here in the States IN THE LAST TWO YEARS ALONE! Your original statement and premise was flat out wrong!

I completely agree with you that people should buy what they want and what suits their needs, but that is an entirely different discussion from what your original statement was. Their is NO equivalency here between Ford/GM and the transplants as far as investing here in the States. The numbers dont lie.

 

[Nick R]

The fact is that Toyota, and honda still import a huge amount of their product from Japan. If not the whole product, then parts. The lack of supply of those shows that. GM and Ford don't have the supply problems. Most GM vehicles are assembled in US or Canada. A few are made in Mexico. A large amount of Fords are made in the US and Canada, and a decent amount in Mexico.

As we've established, Made in Canada is basically Made in USA. Mexico isn't as good as either, but it's better imo than made in Asia. I have nothing against Japan at all, don't get me wrong.

But at least mexico allows the US companies to sell cars there. Do you have any idea the import tariffs that are imposed on US made vehicles in Japan?

Ford and GM (and chrysler too to a degree) have invested heavily in US Manufacturing in the past few years. The fact that GM has announced the re-opening of the Spring Hill Plant is fantastic. Yet people will still complain, and say that Toyota and Honda invest more in the US and Canada than the D3.

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


I do not beleive...
I do not beleive...
I beleive...
I truly belive...



Blah, blah blah...you are long on theory and beliefs and sorely lacking on the actual facts surrounding the issue.

You are the one who stepped into this thread and argued equivalency where none exists, the facts are out there if you care to rid yourself of beliefs and delve into the realm of reality and facts.

According to their own marketing arm, the transplants have invested a TOTAL of 28 billion in the USA over the last twenty years..a drop in the bucket compared to the investments of Ford and GM over the same time frame. Ford and GM have spent nearly half that much here in the States IN THE LAST TWO YEARS ALONE! Your original statement and premise was flat out wrong!

I completely agree with you that people should buy what they want and what suits their needs, but that is an entirely different discussion from what your original statement was. Their is NO equivalency here between Ford/GM and the transplants as far as investing here in the States. The numbers dont lie.


I truly beleive you are in denial. $28 Billion is significant and is resulting in market share gains now in excess of 60%. GM may have invested more and as a result of poor management and excessive labor costs went bankrupt resulting in significant job loss, dealer closings and the loss of investor capital. If the government didn't bail them out we wouldn't even be discussing this point.

The dollar amount is meaningless it is the return on investment and the impact of the spending. I guess the foreign manufacturers are just "smarter" than GM.





I also truly beleive some people might be really upset with that last line.

 

[Nick R]

Look at the number of Americans and Canadians that Ford, GM, and Chrysler combined employ. Now look at the number of Americans and Canadians that Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Hyundai, employ. There is a bit of a difference there. I can't find solid numbers, but I've seen them in the past, and the transplants pale in comparison to the Detroit 3 combined.

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: Nick R
Look at the number of Americans and Canadians that Ford, GM, and Chrysler combined employ. Now look at the number of Americans and Canadians that Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Hyundai, employ. There is a bit of a difference there. I can't find solid numbers, but I've seen them in the past, and the transplants pale in comparison to the Detroit 3 combined.


Canadians are not American's. They may be very nice people but they don't pay US income tax or vote in US elections.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


Blah, blah blah...you are long on theory and beliefs and sorely lacking on the actual facts surrounding the issue.

You are the one who stepped into this thread and argued equivalency where none exists, the facts are out there if you care to rid yourself of beliefs and delve into the realm of reality and facts.

According to their own marketing arm, the transplants have invested a TOTAL of 28 billion in the USA over the last twenty years..a drop in the bucket compared to the investments of Ford and GM over the same time frame. Ford and GM have spent nearly half that much here in the States IN THE LAST TWO YEARS ALONE! Your original statement and premise was flat out wrong!

I completely agree with you that people should buy what they want and what suits their needs, but that is an entirely different discussion from what your original statement was. Their is NO equivalency here between Ford/GM and the transplants as far as investing here in the States. The numbers dont lie.


I truly beleive you are in denial. $28 Billion is significant and is resulting in market share gains now in excess of 60%. GM may have invested more and as a result of poor management and excessive labor costs went bankrupt resulting in significant job loss, dealer closings and the loss of investor capital. If the government didn't bail them out we wouldn't even be discussing this point.

The dollar amount is meaningless it is the return on investment and the impact of the spending. I guess the foreign manufacturers are just "smarter" than GM.





I also truly beleive some people might be really upset with that last line.






LOL...I have a belief as well...I believe you have no clue what you are talking about.

All the investments listed are for plant infrastructure and tooling type expenses....and they trounce the transplants here because they employ and assemble so much more here. This discussion has nothing to do with labor cost deltas or the like. You are either aware that you are wrong and just attempting to lamely change the scope of the discussion or you simply dont know what you are talking about. In that regard, I think my belief stated above is dead on! Otherwise, we'd be reading facts from you instead of childish attempts to bring the BK into the discussion.

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


Blah, blah blah...you are long on theory and beliefs and sorely lacking on the actual facts surrounding the issue.

You are the one who stepped into this thread and argued equivalency where none exists, the facts are out there if you care to rid yourself of beliefs and delve into the realm of reality and facts.

According to their own marketing arm, the transplants have invested a TOTAL of 28 billion in the USA over the last twenty years..a drop in the bucket compared to the investments of Ford and GM over the same time frame. Ford and GM have spent nearly half that much here in the States IN THE LAST TWO YEARS ALONE! Your original statement and premise was flat out wrong!

I completely agree with you that people should buy what they want and what suits their needs, but that is an entirely different discussion from what your original statement was. Their is NO equivalency here between Ford/GM and the transplants as far as investing here in the States. The numbers dont lie.


I truly beleive you are in denial. $28 Billion is significant and is resulting in market share gains now in excess of 60%. GM may have invested more and as a result of poor management and excessive labor costs went bankrupt resulting in significant job loss, dealer closings and the loss of investor capital. If the government didn't bail them out we wouldn't even be discussing this point.

The dollar amount is meaningless it is the return on investment and the impact of the spending. I guess the foreign manufacturers are just "smarter" than GM.





I also truly beleive some people might be really upset with that last line.






LOL...I have a belief as well...I believe you have no clue what you are talking about.

All the investments listed are for plant infrastructure and tooling type expenses....and they trounce the transplants here because they employ and assemble so much more here. This discussion has nothing to do with labor cost deltas or the like. You are either aware that you are wrong and just attempting to lamely change the scope of the discussion or you simply dont know what you are talking about. In that regard, I think my belief stated above is dead on! Otherwise, we'd be reading facts from you instead of childish attempts to bring the BK into the discussion.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


Blah, blah blah...you are long on theory and beliefs and sorely lacking on the actual facts surrounding the issue.

You are the one who stepped into this thread and argued equivalency where none exists, the facts are out there if you care to rid yourself of beliefs and delve into the realm of reality and facts.

According to their own marketing arm, the transplants have invested a TOTAL of 28 billion in the USA over the last twenty years..a drop in the bucket compared to the investments of Ford and GM over the same time frame. Ford and GM have spent nearly half that much here in the States IN THE LAST TWO YEARS ALONE! Your original statement and premise was flat out wrong!

I completely agree with you that people should buy what they want and what suits their needs, but that is an entirely different discussion from what your original statement was. Their is NO equivalency here between Ford/GM and the transplants as far as investing here in the States. The numbers dont lie.


I truly beleive you are in denial. $28 Billion is significant and is resulting in market share gains now in excess of 60%. GM may have invested more and as a result of poor management and excessive labor costs went bankrupt resulting in significant job loss, dealer closings and the loss of investor capital. If the government didn't bail them out we wouldn't even be discussing this point.

The dollar amount is meaningless it is the return on investment and the impact of the spending. I guess the foreign manufacturers are just "smarter" than GM.





I also truly beleive some people might be really upset with that last line.






LOL...I have a belief as well...I believe you have no clue what you are talking about.

All the investments listed are for plant infrastructure and tooling type expenses....and they trounce the transplants here because they employ and assemble so much more here. This discussion has nothing to do with labor cost deltas or the like. You are either aware that you are wrong and just attempting to lamely change the scope of the discussion or you simply dont know what you are talking about. In that regard, I think my belief stated above is dead on! Otherwise, we'd be reading facts from you instead of childish attempts to bring the BK into the discussion.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


Blah, blah blah...you are long on theory and beliefs and sorely lacking on the actual facts surrounding the issue.

You are the one who stepped into this thread and argued equivalency where none exists, the facts are out there if you care to rid yourself of beliefs and delve into the realm of reality and facts.

According to their own marketing arm, the transplants have invested a TOTAL of 28 billion in the USA over the last twenty years..a drop in the bucket compared to the investments of Ford and GM over the same time frame. Ford and GM have spent nearly half that much here in the States IN THE LAST TWO YEARS ALONE! Your original statement and premise was flat out wrong!

I completely agree with you that people should buy what they want and what suits their needs, but that is an entirely different discussion from what your original statement was. Their is NO equivalency here between Ford/GM and the transplants as far as investing here in the States. The numbers dont lie.


I truly beleive you are in denial. $28 Billion is significant and is resulting in market share gains now in excess of 60%. GM may have invested more and as a result of poor management and excessive labor costs went bankrupt resulting in significant job loss, dealer closings and the loss of investor capital. If the government didn't bail them out we wouldn't even be discussing this point.

The dollar amount is meaningless it is the return on investment and the impact of the spending. I guess the foreign manufacturers are just "smarter" than GM.





I also truly beleive some people might be really upset with that last line.






LOL...I have a belief as well...I believe you have no clue what you are talking about.

All the investments listed are for plant infrastructure and tooling type expenses....and they trounce the transplants here because they employ and assemble so much more here. This discussion has nothing to do with labor cost deltas or the like. You are either aware that you are wrong and just attempting to lamely change the scope of the discussion or you simply dont know what you are talking about. In that regard, I think my belief stated above is dead on! Otherwise, we'd be reading facts from you instead of childish attempts to bring the BK into the discussion.


What have I stated anywhere on this thread that is not not true?

Have the GM investments worked well for them over the past 30 years? How many of those plants they invested in closed. How many were re-tooled for cars people did not want. How can one not bring up the bankruptcy when we are discussing GM and investment. It is one of the largest and most embarassing business failures in US history.

I did not make this personal and I did not attack you. You seem to be very sensitive about this topic. You also appear to beleive that I can be bullied.

 

[LS2JSTS]

No, your actions speak for themselves, ie ignore facts in preference for your "beliefs". Constantly changing the point that you made originally that I refuted with actual links to real investments that show the imbalance in investments. Your misguided belief that the transplants invest here in a similar manner and amount to the domestics has absolutely nothing to do with the BK or any other labor red herring you want to drag into the discussion now.

Did you even bother to read the links I posted? Your pre conceived notions seem to dictate that you state things like GM invested the money in cars that people didnt want...or expand the scope back thirty years...THESE investments were all from the prior two years...ALL of them. Investments in the new Malibu, the New Cruze, huge investments in the eco engine family...all of them succesful in the market to this point. Same thing with the investments listed that revolved around the Nox/Terrain...both selling faster than they can build them.

So to answer your question...NO, the investments I listed that total almost 6 billion by GM in the USA over the last two years were NOT invested in cars that people dont want.

My question to you is did you even bother to educate yourself at all on this topic before you made claim that GM had misspent those investments? What does investment from thirty years ago have to do with the investments I listed and the products they were invested into?

I do take it personally when someone makes a statement of fact, that is clearly wrong and then ignores the facts that prove it was wrong. Only moving the target and changing the discussion to obfuscate the facts from reality...I have no desire to bully you...lol...I'm done with you AND your "beliefs".

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Nick R


Ford and GM (and chrysler too to a degree) have invested heavily in US Manufacturing in the past few years. The fact that GM has announced the re-opening of the Spring Hill Plant is fantastic. Yet people will still complain, and say that Toyota and Honda invest more in the US and Canada than the D3.


It really is strange isn't it?

Some it seems just cant let the facts get in the way of their "beliefs".

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
No, I believe exactly what you said you do, ie ignore facts in preference for your "beliefs". Constantly changing the point that you made originally that I refuted with actual links to real investments that show the imbalance in investments. Your original point that the transplants invest here in a similar manner and amount to the domestics has absolutely nothing to do with the BK or any other labor red herring you want to drag into the discussion now.

Did you even bother to read the links I posted? Your pre conceived notions seem to dictate that you state things like GM invested the money in cars that people didnt want...or expand the scope back thirty years...THESE investments were all from the prior two years...ALL of them. Investments in the new Malibu, the New Cruze, huge investments in the eco engine family...all of them succesful in the market to this point. Same thing with the investments listed that revolved around the Nox/Terrain...both selling faster than they can build them.

So to answer your question...NO, the investments I listed that total almost 6 billion by GM in the USA over the last two years were NOT invested in cars that people dont want.

My question to you is did you even bother to educate yourself at all on this topic before you made claim that GM had misspent those investments? What does investment from thirty years ago have to do with the investments I listed and the products they were invested into?

I do take it personally when someone makes a statement of fact, that is clearly wrong and then ignores the facts that prove it was wrong. Only moving the target and changing the discussion to obfuscate the facts from reality...


Didn't read all of the above but I got the basics. Never said other manufacturers invested the same as GM/Ford in the US. "Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Subaru, Hyundai, etc have also invested billions in the US. All of these companies, as well as GM and Ford need to do so to compete effectively in the US market." - Is this what you are upset about?

Also said:
"I do not beleive that GM or Ford's commitment to the US is any greater than the companies I listed above." Maybe this one? Never said financial investment

I admire your defense of GM. Maybe you work there or just like their products. Maybe the new company will survive. I don't have an agenda against GM. I just had too many bad experiences with their products to consider them as an option. To me, and about 80% of the other Americans, they are irrelevant.

I do have a fact for you that you seem to be very upset about - GM went bankrupt. We can argue the reasons (poor managment, labor unions, etc). But my opinion (you can disagree) is that they did not make the cars Americans wanted to buy. Very simple and basic concept. Consumers felt there were better products out there for their money.

My intial post was actually in defense of GM. Most posters were upset that they were investing in China. My position is that China is their biggest market so it makes good business sense to invest in that opportunity.

No dancing, no changing the subject, just responding to questions. Don't need to be "educated". I frankly don't care that much about the topic, your opinion or the links you posted. I still stand by everything I said.

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Nick R


Ford and GM (and chrysler too to a degree) have invested heavily in US Manufacturing in the past few years. The fact that GM has announced the re-opening of the Spring Hill Plant is fantastic. Yet people will still complain, and say that Toyota and Honda invest more in the US and Canada than the D3.


It really is strange isn't it?

Some it seems just cant let the facts get in the way of their "beliefs".


Funny, didn't read any posts stating that Toyota and Honda invest more in the US and Canada than GM, Ford and Fiat.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


I disagree. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Subaru, Hyundai, etc have also invested billions in the US. All of these companies, as well as GM and Ford need to do so to compete effectively in the US market.

I do not beleive that GM or Ford's commitment to the US is any greater than the companies I listed above.



Funny, I did...see above.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Of course, I and most people who consider these issues rationally, measure commitment through jobs and money invested in a particular market. You may have some other touchy, feely measure of committment that I'm not aware of. But I'm sure you'll make those beliefs clear to us all...lol

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


I disagree. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Subaru, Hyundai, etc have also invested billions in the US. All of these companies, as well as GM and Ford need to do so to compete effectively in the US market.

I do not beleive that GM or Ford's commitment to the US is any greater than the companies I listed above.



Funny, I did...see above.


You see what you want to see. Never mentioned investment or Canada. Your perception does not make it a reality.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Well then by all means, please define what you DID mean by "commitment to the US" market?

What measures are you using to gauge this commitment of a multi national corporation to a particualr market or country that fall outside of money invested there and the number of jobs provided? I'm dying to hear these parameters...please.