GM to partner with China

[SteveSRT8]

Thank you KrisZ for that last point. It is often forgotten.

We are only just now being threatened as the largest consumer market in the world by far. We could put whatever tariff we wanted on imports, as we are their market!

But the facts remain facts. Corporations exist to make money, not political points, so they go where they perceive the greatest potential for profits.

If people would just be more involved in their government this would never become a problem. Make some noise and be heard!

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Manufacturers should not be the ones responsible for job creation or preservation of wealth in their home country, this job is for the policymakers.

This is exactly backwards. Wealth comes from people doing productive things and the policy makers simply extract and redistribute it.

Government doesn't create wealth, it drains it. "Jobs" that government creates are paid for by extracting the profit of productive people (and some people hate profit

) . So once you add in government overhead (at least 30%), society becomes poorer as more government workers are added.

 

[SteveSRT8]

What... you mean you don't believe the Multiplication [censored]?

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
That article shed the light on what's happening around the world. Countries from Germany to China are subsidizing manufacturers to bring Manufacturing to their shores and the much needed employment to their population.

You have to take money from other members of their country, in order for the government to provide those "jobs".

Where is the gain there?

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
What... you mean you don't believe the Multiplication [censored]?

Nor do I believe in trying to tax (tariff) yourself into wealth.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
Manufacturers should not be the ones responsible for job creation or preservation of wealth in their home country, this job is for the policymakers.

This is exactly backwards. Wealth comes from people doing productive things and the policy makers simply extract and redistribute it.

Government doesn't create wealth, it drains it. "Jobs" that government creates are paid for by extracting the profit of productive people (and some people hate profit

) . So once you add in government overhead (at least 30%), society becomes poorer as more government workers are added.


I never said the government creates wealth, I said the government should protect whatever wealth its people and corporations can create, and that in turn creates jobs. Current policy makes US and Canada largest importers of goods, when looking at our diverse population and resources we should be the largest exporters.

 

[Billy_D]

Quote:

This is exactly backwards. Wealth comes from people doing productive things and the policy makers simply extract and redistribute it...


The problem we have is that production is done elsewhere, wealth is created somewhere else. This is not about distribution of wealth. The discussion is about protection of American wealth by creating the right incentives and policies to protect and add jobs to the economy.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Billy007
This is not about distribution of wealth. The discussion is about protection of American wealth by creating the right incentives and policies to protect and add jobs to the economy.


Exactly! We simply don't have any incentives or "proper climate" to keep manufacturing jobs here, heck it's not just manufacturing anymore. We have IT, design and even management jobs being outsourced. The easy to outsource something is simply mind boggling.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
I said the government should protect whatever wealth its people and corporations can create,

How does it do that?

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Originally Posted By: eljefino
China seems to have clinched the "teach a man to fish" proverb.


Teaching a man to fish is one thing, giving him everything you caught and letting him run off with your rod, reel and tackle is another.


More truth can hardly be packed into one sentence!

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Originally Posted By: eljefino
China seems to have clinched the "teach a man to fish" proverb.


Teaching a man to fish is one thing, giving him everything you caught and letting him run off with your rod, reel and tackle is another.


More truth can hardly be packed into one sentence!

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
What... you mean you don't believe the Multiplication [censored]?

Nor do I believe in trying to tax (tariff) yourself into wealth.


Tariffs would likely resolve the issues we have with China. They would probably devalue their currency, which we have been fighting with them about for years. They place HUGE tariffs on our stuff that is imported into their country.

I say what's good for the goose...

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
What... you mean you don't believe the Multiplication [censored]?

Nor do I believe in trying to tax (tariff) yourself into wealth.


So you believe in outsourcing (free trading) yourself into wealth? I guess one has to define "yourself". If yourself only means exporting country, owner of global trading firm, retailer or manufacturer I guess that's true in the short term at least. That's a very small group of people relative to the rest of Americans and who were already wealthy.

 

[daves87rs]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Manufacturers should not be the ones responsible for job creation or preservation of wealth in their home country, this job is for the policymakers.

And since our policy favors shipping jobs overseas, you cannot blame manufacturers that are trying to survive, for taking advantage of the situation.

If appropriate tariffs or taxes were imposed on all imported products, to eliminate the huge profit margins gained by manufacturing off-shore, we would find that many companies would simply start manufacturing here. The common scare tactic used in media is that these manufacturers would just leave NA market and sell their products else ware, this is simply B.S, we are still the biggest market for consumer goods, no manufacturer would be stupid enough to just abandon this market.




Bam! +1


Thanks Kris...

 

[daves87rs]

Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Originally Posted By: eljefino
China seems to have clinched the "teach a man to fish" proverb.


Teaching a man to fish is one thing, giving him everything you caught and letting him run off with your rod, reel and tackle is another.



Keep in mind they are going to do that one way or another....

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


This goes back to one of the previous threads about domestic vs, foreign. All car companies are global. There is no domestic vs. foreign. GM has no loyalty to the "buy American crowd". They will show the Chevy commercial with John Mellancamp while they invest billions in creating Chinese jobs. I am not bashing GM, this is just reality. Buyers need to purchase the vehicle that best fits their needs and not worry about domestic vs. foreign because the manufacturers don't care.


Claiming GM has no loyalty to their home market is pure rubbish...and trying to prove it on the back of a couple billion dollar investment in China is a false measurement at best. Sure GM is investing a couple billion in China to serve their huge market, but I guess you dont count the billions GM has invested here in the States over the same time frame? GM's investment in the US/Canada over the last two years has exceeded 6 billion dollars.....

12/7/09 GM Invests 336 Million at Detroit-Hamtramck Plant

1/26/10 GM Invests 246 Million in Baltimore Electric Motors/Hybrid Components

4/27/10 GM Invests 890 Million at 5 Engi...nce and Bedford

4/21/10 GM Invests 257 Million in Fairfax and Hamtramck to support next gen Malibu

8/18/10 GM Invests additional 20 Million in Bay City

9/17/10 GM Invests 483 Million at Spring Hill Engine

9/29/10 GM Invests additional 23.5 Million in Baltimore

10/28/10 GM Invests 190 Million at Lansing Grand River Plant

10/20/10 GM Invests 37 Million in Lansing Delta Twp Plant

10/7/10 GM Invests 145 Million at Orion Assembly

11/24/10 GM Invests additional 163 Million at Flint Engine

3/30/11 GM Invests 30 Million at Pontiac Stamping

4/12/11 GM Invests 100 Million at Rochester Operations

5/31/11 GM Lansing Grand River gets Additional 88 Million Investment

5/26/11 GM Invests 331 Million in Arlington Assembly

5/13/11 GM Invests Additional 109 Million at Flint Engine and Bay City Components

5/4/11 GM Invests 131 Million at Bowling Green Assembly

6/13/11 GM Invests 20 Million at Fairfax Assembly

6/10/11 GM Invests additional 47 Million at Fairfax Powertrain

6/8/11 GM Invests 49 Million at Bedford Powertrain

6/6/11 GM Invests 130 Million at Warren Tech Center

7/18/11 GM Invests 328 Million at Flint Assembly

7/12/11 GM Invests Total of 287 Million at Toledo Transmission


...ftr, a similar list could be put together for Ford as well, in my book this qualifies as meeting a "higher standard"

 

[daves87rs]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: Nick R
What very few of you realize, is that in order to do business in china, the chinese government REQUIRES foreign companies to parter with a chinese domestic company.


Yeah but that's the catch. That why china can more easily steal tehnology and basically make claims on the other partner. Short-term it might make sense but what about long-term?



Well, since China may own the world in 10 years or less....

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
What... you mean you don't believe the Multiplication [censored]?

Nor do I believe in trying to tax (tariff) yourself into wealth.


Tariffs would likely resolve the issues we have with China. They would probably devalue their currency, which we have been fighting with them about for years. They place HUGE tariffs on our stuff that is imported into their country.

I say what's good for the goose...


Actually, they need to let their currency appreciate like ti naturally would from their trade surplus with the US; they keep it artificially low to make their products cheaper here.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
What... you mean you don't believe the Multiplication [censored]?

Nor do I believe in trying to tax (tariff) yourself into wealth.


Tariffs would likely resolve the issues we have with China. They would probably devalue their currency, which we have been fighting with them about for years. They place HUGE tariffs on our stuff that is imported into their country.

I say what's good for the goose...


Actually, they need to let their currency appreciate like ti naturally would from their trade surplus with the US; they keep it artificially low to make their products cheaper here.



There is already a bill being touted by our Congress to address the currency issue. And of course distract from our more pressing problems...

 

[Cardinal49]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Cardinal49


This goes back to one of the previous threads about domestic vs, foreign. All car companies are global. There is no domestic vs. foreign. GM has no loyalty to the "buy American crowd". They will show the Chevy commercial with John Mellancamp while they invest billions in creating Chinese jobs. I am not bashing GM, this is just reality. Buyers need to purchase the vehicle that best fits their needs and not worry about domestic vs. foreign because the manufacturers don't care.


Claiming GM has no loyalty to their home market is pure rubbish...and trying to prove it on the back of a couple billion dollar investment in China is a false measurement at best. Sure GM is investing a couple billion in China to serve their huge market, but I guess you dont count the billions GM has invested here in the States over the same time frame? GM's investment in the US/Canada over the last two years has exceeded 6 billion dollars.....

12/7/09 GM Invests 336 Million at Detroit-Hamtramck Plant

1/26/10 GM Invests 246 Million in Baltimore Electric Motors/Hybrid Components

4/27/10 GM Invests 890 Million at 5 Engi...nce and Bedford

4/21/10 GM Invests 257 Million in Fairfax and Hamtramck to support next gen Malibu

8/18/10 GM Invests additional 20 Million in Bay City

9/17/10 GM Invests 483 Million at Spring Hill Engine

9/29/10 GM Invests additional 23.5 Million in Baltimore

10/28/10 GM Invests 190 Million at Lansing Grand River Plant

10/20/10 GM Invests 37 Million in Lansing Delta Twp Plant

10/7/10 GM Invests 145 Million at Orion Assembly

11/24/10 GM Invests additional 163 Million at Flint Engine

3/30/11 GM Invests 30 Million at Pontiac Stamping

4/12/11 GM Invests 100 Million at Rochester Operations

5/31/11 GM Lansing Grand River gets Additional 88 Million Investment

5/26/11 GM Invests 331 Million in Arlington Assembly

5/13/11 GM Invests Additional 109 Million at Flint Engine and Bay City Components

5/4/11 GM Invests 131 Million at Bowling Green Assembly

6/13/11 GM Invests 20 Million at Fairfax Assembly

6/10/11 GM Invests additional 47 Million at Fairfax Powertrain

6/8/11 GM Invests 49 Million at Bedford Powertrain

6/6/11 GM Invests 130 Million at Warren Tech Center

7/18/11 GM Invests 328 Million at Flint Assembly

7/12/11 GM Invests Total of 287 Million at Toledo Transmission


...ftr, a similar list could be put together for Ford as well, in my book this qualifies as meeting a "higher standard"



I disagree. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Subaru, Hyundai, etc have also invested billions in the US. All of these companies, as well as GM and Ford need to do so to compete effectively in the US market.

I do not beleive that GM or Ford's commitment to the US is any greater than the companies I listed above.

I fully support people buying what best suits their needs. If they have had years of wonderful service from GM that is great. If their family member works at the Ford plant and they want to buy a Ford, I applaud that. I also support the family that lives in Alabama buying a Honda to support their local economy or a guy that buys a Fiat from their brother-in-law that works in a Fiat dealer.

I do think it is naive for a buyer to purchase a GM or Ford with the belief that they are being "good Americans". I am convinced that GM does not have the same loyalty to these buyers.