GM filters best for GM vehicles?

[BigAl]

Two of my cars, a 99 Malibu and a 2005 Suzuki Forenza are both Made by GM, with GM engines.

General Motors develops their engines, runs them constantly on dynos, runs fleet tests, and specs the filters. The filter designs are validated by them in each specific engine application, and the manufacturers (Champ and Delphi) are required to adapt their manufacturing to comply with the GM specs.

I would expect that, given the broad spectrum of data available to GM, the filters they specify would have the optimum balance of efficiency, flow, and pressure drop.

Their AC filters are reasonably priced. So why run anything else on a GM car? I am a mechanical engineer with engine design experience. I have come to the conclusion that I just don't have access to enough information to be able to do a better job of picking out a filter than the OEM folks.

Other opinions?

 

[T-Keith]

AC-delco filters are good. But that doesn't make other filters worse. AC-filters have changed construction several times since they were designed, so how does that make them any more "designed for" the engines?

-T

 

[BigAl]

quote:

---

Originally posted by T-Keith:
AC-delco filters are good. But that doesn't make other filters worse. AC-filters have changed construction several times since they were designed, so how does that make them any more "designed for" the engines?

-T

---

Any good company is constantly re-evaluating what they make and implementing continuous improvement.

From what I understand, any changes or improvements in AC filters for GM cars are either brought about at the request of GM engineers, or are validated by GM before the filters are released.

For example, if Champion wants to use their new E-Core technology for the filters they provide for GM, they would need to work with GM to provide the right amount of correct GM-specified media, etc, and submit samples to GM for extensive validation testing for filtration, burst strength, etc. In other words, GM (AC Delco) doesn't just buy an off-the-shelf filter and have it painted blue . . . they get filters built to perform the way they want.

Back when I worked for an engine company, we would sometimes look at aftermarket parts, or even be approached by people already selling aftermarket parts for our engines, wanting to provide them to us on an OEM basis. These aftermarket products (one I evaluated was a line of air filters) were designed without any input from the OEM. Sometimes the stuff was OK, but there were sometimes dimensional or performance issues, even from reputable companies . . . after all, the parts were designed without any input from the engine maker.

[ October 06, 2005, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: BigAl ]

 

[davefr]

AC Delco's seem to be good filters, but most of my GM engines have the bypass valve in the engine and the filters are mounted vertical.

That means both drainback and bypass valves are not a consideration so the only thing left is filtration media effectiveness and construction.

I think PureOne's are better then AC Delco's in this regard.

 

[kanling]

I don't think you can go wrong picking an OEM filter (except maybe for vehicles where the price is much higher). Because I think if there were anything major wrong with them, they would fix it.

That said, I secretly suspect that automakers don't do as much testing on their filters as some people believe. They have a million other things to test... how much budget do they really devote to filters? A lot of people (I'm thinking of a recent post about Hondas) seem to feel that the engineers at a company are all tuned-in to every aspect of the product and work as an integrated, harmonious, all-knowing team. In reality, these are huge companies with multiple locations, thousands of employees, hundreds of departments. Surely they have the same lack of communication, questionable management decisionmaking, and office politics of any large company. If that's not the case, somebody please tell me where to send my resume.

 

[BigAl]

quote:

---

Originally posted by davefr:

That means both drainback and bypass valves are not a consideration so the only thing left is filtration media effectiveness and construction.

I think PureOne's are better then AC Delco's in this regard.

---

Is your opinion based on dyno tests, fleet studies, or neither?

PureOne filters filter to a finer level, but have more restriction. The AC Ultraguard filters were similar in this regard. GM pulled much of the Ultraguard line because of flow problems in the field, but PureOne didn't.

Who's right? I'd bet on GM.

 

[labman]

Way before BITOG, the PF 1177 disappeared from Wally's shelf. I switched to the PH 3590, but had nagging doubts about how good something available cheap at Wally's and everything else was. Lacking a better alternative, I fell to chopping up filters and studying the entrails.

code:

---

#!/usr/bin/perl





Brand P/N Length width area, sq. in Fits endcaps mfg valves

Older data, 2000 ?

AC Delco PF9 102 2 1/2 255 77 LUV

STP S02856A 108 1 3/4 189 ''

Purolator L10193 105 1 3/4 184 ''

Power Flo SL 14619 76 2 3/8 180 ''

Hastings LF143 71 2 1/2 178 ''

ST ST3950 98 1 3/4 171 ''

Fram PH 3950 48 1 3/4 84 ''

2003 filters

Miata B6Y214302 69 1 3/4 121 1991 Roadster

AC Delco PF2244G* 46 3 138 02 Caviler France

STP 9018 57 21/2 143 '' Korea

Purolator L15436 52 21/2 130 '' Thailand

WIX 57082



22 Aug 03 filters were a year or 2 old



ST ST3950 84 1.75 147 77 LUV metal ADBV, bypass,

Purolator L10193** 76 2 152 '' card USA '' , ''

Purolator L10193 96 2 192 *** '' metal India '' far end

AC PF1177 92 2.5 230 '' card Canada ''

AC PF 47 56 2 112 92GrandAm metal ''

AC PF 52 53 3.75 198 '' OS '' ''

ST ST 3387A 46 2 92 '' '' USA ''

ST**** ST3950 90 2.1 189 77 LUV Metal ADBV, bypass

ST 6-05, clicker '' 90 1.75 157 '' '' USA '' ''

*The AC, Hastings, and Fram all said PURFLUX L264A on the end of the plastic housing.

**Interesting 1 piece of rubber for both valves

***The media was noticable thinner than the others

****9-04 newer black case



exit;

---

As you can see, the AC had half again as much filter area as most of the others, and 3 timnes the Fram. I never see either the PF 1177 or the PF 2244G on the shelf, or would be using them. Area of media isn't everything, but until I see more data, it is ST 3950 for the old truck, and L 15436 in the Ecotec.

 

[Willy_G]

I thought the Forenza had the 'old' Daewoo, now GMDAT 2.0l engine?

 

[kanling]

GMC Interoffice Memo
To: Employees of Filter Division
From: Big Boss Man in another state
Subject: Oil Filter Development

Dear valued employees:

As you know, GM is in the crapper. We are teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. Because of this, we need to control costs as much as possible.

Starting now, please design all AC OEM products so that they will be as cheap as possible. Performance standard guidelines are now revised so that
the product only needs to last as long as the warranty in any vehicle- not one day longer.

I am aware that the extra work involved in redesigning these products may take valuable time away from your primary tasks of working on your resume
and searching Monster, for this I apologize.

I am also aware that some may question this policy since lower quality products may hurt our long-term brand image. While I agree that
this is a concern, management has decided to proceed
because we otherwise might go out of business tomorrow and have no long-term brand to think about. Could this happen?

Edited Code, tried to make the whole thread smaller, did not work.

[ October 07, 2005, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]

 

[BigAl]

quote:

---

Could this happen?

---

Why not? It apparently already happened to Fram and Quaker State filters.

 

[T-Keith]

I agree, your more likely to get a better product buying one endorsed by the OEM. But, that doesn't mean an aftermarket product will be worse, nor does it mean the OEM product will not have problems. I don't know all the reasons for the changes in AC-delco filters, one may be indeed improvement or problem fixing, as in the PF-44-46 case, and another may be the supplier, as in the Champ filters.

Construction wise Purolator filters are very, very similar to the champ ACs and the media area is greater and in the Pure One's case not that far off flow and filtration wise, so I feel fully comfortable using them.

-T

 

[Mickey_M]

quote:

---

BigAl:


.... The AC Ultraguard filters were similar in this regard. GM pulled much of the Ultraguard line because of flow problems in the field, but PureOne didn't. ....

---

I believe the primary reason GM pulled the Ultraguard Silver and Gold was lack of sales.

They were expensive and sat on the shelves when folks had the PureOne, Mobil 1, and other higher performance filters available, sometimes for a third or half the price.


.

 

[Kruse]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BigAl:

Their AC filters are reasonably priced. So why run anything else on a GM car? I am a mechanical engineer with engine design experience. I have come to the conclusion that I just don't have access to enough information to be able to do a better job of picking out a filter than the OEM folks.
Other opinions?

---

AC-Delco filters may be good filters, but just because they have the OEM name on is no reason to buy them. Did you ever walk through an O'Reillys store and look at the AC-Delco line of hand tools? I doubt that too many "Mr. Goodwrenches" use them, even though they are reasonably priced. Quality-wise, there is a big difference between AC-Delco hand tools and other brands. I think AC-Delco sold their soul when they put their name on economy hand tools.

 

[2Fast4U]

Just like AC Delco OEM batteries are great too, right? I've had 2 of their *** oem batteries crack and leak acid all over the place. I've also talked with at LEAST 6 other people with the same problems. But then again... I guess the battery quality has nothing to do with the filter quality, right.

 

[davefr]

It's my opinon based on inspection of these 2 cut up filters. (nothing more, nothing less)

Pure Ones might have more resistance to flow but they have significantly more filtration media. To me, this seems to have compensated for the flow issue.

I'd like to see a scientific test but haven't seen one.

I have a mix of Wix, Pure Ones and AC Delcos. I have complete confidence in any of them but if I were to buy a new one today, I'd lean towards Pure One.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BigAl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by davefr:

That means both drainback and bypass valves are not a consideration so the only thing left is filtration media effectiveness and construction.

I think PureOne's are better then AC Delco's in this regard.

---

Is your opinion based on dyno tests, fleet studies, or neither?

PureOne filters filter to a finer level, but have more restriction. The AC Ultraguard filters were similar in this regard. GM pulled much of the Ultraguard line because of flow problems in the field, but PureOne didn't.

Who's right? I'd bet on GM.

---

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BigAl:

Their AC filters are reasonably priced. So why run anything else on a GM car? I am a mechanical engineer with engine design experience. I have come to the conclusion that I just don't have access to enough information to be able to do a better job of picking out a filter than the OEM folks.

Other opinions?

---

In most of the manufacturing world, cost is a major decision driver that dictates that good enough (meets spec), not best, is used.

Do the manufaturers put the best tires available on their cars, the best batteries available, etc....? Why would you expect them to use the best filter avilable?

Does your comapny always use what you believe is the highest quality componants, or is your componant selection and design work tempered by cost and business connection considerations?

 

[BigAl]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Willy_G:
I thought the Forenza had the 'old' Daewoo, now GMDAT 2.0l engine?

---

Yes it's the same engine. Even the Daewoo Nubira used a GM engine based on a European GM (Opel, Vauxhall) design, made by GM-Holden in Australia. It is exported worldwide. In Europe it is an E-Tec, in Korea it is labeled D-Tec for Daewoo. It came from the factory with an AC oil filter.

[ October 06, 2005, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: BigAl ]

 

[BigAl]

quote:

---

Originally posted by XS650:
In most of the manufacturing world, cost is a major decision driver that dictates that good enough (meets spec), not best, is used.

Do the manufaturers put the best tires available on their cars, the best batteries available, etc....? Why would you expect them to use the best filter avilable?

Does your comapny always use what you believe is the highest quality componants, or is your componant selection and design work tempered by cost and business connection considerations?

---

What you are saying is true, but the same cost constraints come into play in the aftermarket too. The design of every part is a compromise. A battery with great cold cranking would be heavy, and might not stand up well to Texas heat. Tires that perform well on the track might not do so well in a blizzard or hitting potholes. The OEMs try to put on parts that work well under most conditions. The AC filters are surely not the absolute best ones that GM could possibly provide, but they are well tested for the application.

 

[Mike_dup1]

Keep in mind the AC Delco was designed to fit the GM engine whereas most if not all aftermarket replacements are reverse engineered to fit. Many times they make changes to the construction to follow their other models.

Good or bad, up to the user to determine.

I have seen with some brands that they may have several model numbers that cross reference to one AC Delco model. Which always make me wonder, are you getting the correct filter or one they pulled from their list and determined it close enough to fit the AC Delco model.

Aorund here there is an authorized AC Delco retailer who sells at discount prices so the other brands are not that attractive in price. Actually a AC filter for my CTS cost me less than $5 whereas every other brand )limited in those who offer one) costs more at the parts stores. I found a Fram selling at Walmart for nearly $10 which compares to what a GM dealer would be selling for.

 

[obbop]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BigAl:
Two of my cars, a 99 Malibu and a 2005 Suzuki Forenza are both Made by GM, with GM engines.

General Motors develops their engines, runs them constantly on dynos, runs fleet tests, and specs the filters. The filter designs are validated by them in each specific engine application, and the manufacturers (Champ and Delphi) are required to adapt their manufacturing to comply with the GM specs.

I would expect that, given the broad spectrum of data available to GM, the filters they specify would have the optimum balance of efficiency, flow, and pressure drop.

Their AC filters are reasonably priced. So why run anything else on a GM car? I am a mechanical engineer with engine design experience. I have come to the conclusion that I just don't have access to enough information to be able to do a better job of picking out a filter than the OEM folks.

Other opinions?

---

Nope. I believe you have made a mighty fine declarative statement that I can neither rebut nor add anything meaninful to.

Away we goooooooo...................

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!