GM ENGINES KNOCK

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quote:

Originally posted by Patman:


Dan [/qb]

The 98 Formula I owned, which had the LS1 engine, needed no additives in the oil or the fuel in order to get it to run right. I had no consumption issues or piston slap with that engine. It ran very strongly in the quarter mile (12.68 at 110.6mph with just basic mods, nothing done to the engine internally either) so there was no evidence of any carbon buildup in it either.

I hope I have similar luck when I purchase a 97 Corvette in a few years.

So don't go thinking all of these engines are bad. [/QB][/QUOTE]


Patman, I have the same experiences as you. I bought my 2000 Firebird new in 2000. I now have 40K "HARD" miles on it. It has well over 100 {likely near 200} 1/4 mile passes, somewhere around 50 or so AutoX passes and way too much play in the N.Ga. mountains. Heck, everytime I drive the car, I take it to redline.

To date the worst oil consumption hase been a bit over a qrt. or so in around 7000 miles or so if I remember right. On that interval, there were plenty of AutoXs, 1/4 mile runs and play on the street {included around 10 laps at Bristol Motor Speedway, like being in a fishbowl
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}. I have no audible piston slap {maybe I don't hear too well}.

The average consumption is well under a qrt in 7500 miles. I have only added oil once during a oil change interval. Believe it or not, I've ran M1 0W30 since it's third oil change at around 4K miles. My last change, I went with 0W40 with what appears to be the same results-no oil consumption.

The best pure stock time was a 13.46@104mph at Bristol in 90 degree weather. I believe that if the track was at sea level and the temps were in the 60-70 degree range,,,the times would have been around a 13 flat and the mph would have been up near 109 or so.

Later I did a 12.96@109mph with only a aftermarket airlid and some free mod stuff. Now my best has been a 12.59@111mph with the lid, 4.10 gears in the axle, underdrive pulley and ET Streets. BTW, I get around 28-29mpg on the highway and somewhere around 18-20 normal driving.

Not too bad for a car that cost me 26K$ and change out the door. That included a 4K$ Firehawk option. Plenty Z28s and Formulas sold for 22K$ or less.

I just think that if {on a whole} other manufacturers engines were treated like that, they endeed may show many of the same traits as the LS1. You never get something for nothing. When you buy a LS1, you are getting a car that can do low 13s, run 160mph, handle decently and has to get remarkable fuel mileage for it's displacement.

I will admit though, if I paid 50K$ for a Vette,,,,it had better not have piston slap or excessive oil consumption in "normal" driving. I could deal with it in a 20K$ Z28.
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I turned down a lucrative position in state department sponsored delegation to Mainland China because of this aspect ( and defense issues).

It cost me PRIMO business contacts in the long run but I couldn't live with myself screwing the US skilled worker and possibly lubing a Chicom tank in the future. Of course they won't need a Tank ,they have our Corporations and Political weenies by the their greedy short sighted pocket books.

Both the GOP and DEMS are equally to blame.
 
There is also a little known fact that helps the mopar engines last beyond 100k. All the small blocks, big blocks, and slants sixs were built with high nickel content blocks. From what I understand, this minimizes wear in cylinder bores.

I have seen several small block and big block engines torn down and have minimal wear in clyinders for mileage and have econo rebuild and keep running. Econo meaning, hone cylinder, put new rings in, do head work and send it on its way.

GM and Ford did not do this. Cadillac used to have high nickel content blocks when they had purpose built engines. No more.

Dan
 
quote:

Originally posted by Judd:

Dan [/qb]

The 98 Formula I owned, which had the LS1 engine, needed no additives in the oil or the fuel in order to get it to run right. I had no consumption issues or piston slap with that engine. It ran very strongly in the quarter mile (12.68 at 110.6mph with just basic mods, nothing done to the engine internally either) so there was no evidence of any carbon buildup in it either.

I hope I have similar luck when I purchase a 97 Corvette in a few years.

So don't go thinking all of these engines are bad. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Judd,
I just traded my 97 C5 for a Rado SS. The LS1 in the Vette was perfect, stomped on from day one (140+ down I95 the day I picked it up). M1 10w/30 changed annually (about 3K miles) and that's it. Good motors if you ask me, but not quite as torquey as the LT1s.

Now the 6.0 in the SS, that motor would by really great in as Vette IMO. Same HP but more torque.
 
quote:

Now the 6.0 in the SS, that motor would by really great in as Vette IMO. Same HP but more torque.

Funny you should say that, as the base engine in the 2005 Corvette will be a 6.0L version of the LS1 (now labelled the LS2), making 400hp though. There will be another version of the Z06 (probably labelled the Z07) in 2006 which will be a 6.4L engine making 500hp!
 
Patman, When the LS2 and the Z07 arrive the copper, lead and iron will really be flying high!! I wonder if we can get one with a UOA with Copper, Lead, Iron and maybe Tin all with triple digits ppm readings??? I am predicitng piston squirters on most of the new engines and future modification. I also see the following stiffer girdle, thicker bearing shells and taller valve guids then curently seen. I also predict tigher emission controls and improved piston design but not buy much. I belive they are going to try to improve oil flow to the wrist pin, beter wrist pin ofset ratio. I also belive that they might make the rings with a better coating on the top ring and more agressive "Napier" style second ring for oil control.

This is just the direction I see things going accros the board in the future for all GM engines. I do not think they can compete with out these few changes.

[ December 09, 2003, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
 
Terry,
Have you taken a look at Chris B's report? Are you going to post your comments on the piston slap issue on here?
Rick
 
Z, I have and I just sent you your oil analysis results , please post the BK labs raw data at your choosing.

The "dieseling" issue that both you guys describe is a new twist to this noisy thread. None of my LS1 customers have described that sound, it's always sourced from the lower end of the engine block.

Both your test results show little to no valvetrain wear unless copper is coming from there. I honestly don't know enough yet to comment definitively. Maybe it is the cam bearings but its alot of copper for that.

Both of you have almost identical wear patterns. One with a Auto-RX cleaning and the other with frequent post rebuild oil changes.Note Patman that vis did not influence wear reduction, the thicker oil brew actually shows higher trended Cu.

[ December 09, 2003, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
 
I take it you are referring to my Cu wear Terry? Hmmmmm.....I'm gonna have to go AWOL just so I can go home to check out my results!
 
quote:

Z, I posted under the GM Piston slap thread. Please post the results I sent you if you want. I think the lifters may be a issue here that I haven't seen before. I am willing to discuss both of these results publicly if you and Chris want to engage that. The dieseling issue is a new one and only you two have mentioned it, other customers have had only the lower end of block noises.


Terry,
So you think the lifters may be at fault instead of the pistons? I'm all about engaging this issue, specially here at BITOG so that we can come up with some explanations, predictions and guidance for others with similar engines.
 
ok....I'm trying to figure out how to copy and paste this PDF document, but no luck so far.
Rick
 
Lifters and maybe the oil pump operation, Moto has some compelling pix that show a good source of copper break-in wear. I've got to bag it for tonight.. back in the AM.

Consider that imbalance may be an issue and that pump would show alot of cu wear with the crank banging around,translated through timing chain, add some form of cavitation to boot we may have our noise maker to the lifter area and gross cu source, Engine builders chime in. Later.
Rick, sorry I am ignorant in attempting to get the raw data to line up or it would be up.


BTW your analysis is excellent for a new motor.

TD

[ December 10, 2003, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]
 
Ok guys, here is the report on my 02 Z28 with the LS1 engine.
This oil was run from 7679 miles to 11,726 miles and about 3 1/2 months. This batch saw 4 or 5 quarter mile runs, countless times when I bounced off the rev limiter, many street races and "just for the heck of it" WOT runs. 80% of the mileage is highway, HOWEVER, if we go by hours, then 25-30% of it is traffic jams, stop and go and all the abuse mentioned above.
This engine has the infamous slap and diesel sound coming from the engine (had me worry for a minute there.)
The oil used was Mobil 1.....1 qrt of 15W-50, 350 ml of #132 and the rest of 10W-30 (~4.5 qrts) I tried this to thicken up the M1 with the hopes of reducing wear. I used Auto-RX on the PREVIOUS run which was only 836 miles, just to remove factory leftover. This is the rinse phase of the ARX treatment. I also have 1-2 tankfull run(s) with Fuel Power at the very end of this OCI.


MI/HR ON OIL-----4047
MI/HR ON UNIT---11,726
NO MAKE UP, NO NOTICEABLE OIL CONSUMED


ALUMINUM--------3
CHROMIUM--------1
IRON-----------12
COPPER--------130
LEAD------------4
TIN-------------2
MOLYBDENUM-----66
NICKEL----------1
MANGANESE-------0
SILVER----------0
TITANIUM--------0
POTASSIUM-------0
BORON---------120
SILICON--------10
SODIUM----------6
CALCIUM------2992
MAGNESIUM------12
PHOSPHORUS----719
ZINC----------910
BARIUM----------0

TBN = 3.3
SUS Vis.=67.1
Flashpoint=370
Fuel Antifreeze=0
Water=0
Insolubles=0.2

My comments:
I am very happy with this report. Except for the darn copper, all else looks very good to me. Insolubles are very low without any adds in the oil or fuel. Flashpoint is a tad low and I'm guessing the fuel might have something to do with it. The air filter is a Fram Triad and it seems to be performing flawlessly, given that my entire neighborhood is brand new and only 70% completed. There is dust everywhere. The city is also adding lanes to my work route, so this car sees HEAVY dust at all times!
TBN is a bit low for only 4k miles....I though it would have held a bit better.
In conclusion....for a relatively new engine that either just finished or is still going through break-in, this results are way more than I could ever have asked for.

You comments and suggestions are welcomed!
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Rick

[ December 10, 2003, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by Motorbike:
Here is some info on the top end noise and elevated copper in engine oil analysis in the Tips n Tricks section .

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000619


Some additional thoughts .

The camshaft obviously indexes the pump after thinking about it. You can see the LubriPlate ' TM " used to protect during non-primed initial motor fire so when these motors have the engine oil drained it could cause pump drive wear until the oil is picked back up .

As the clearance of the drive " circular bronze and distance to the housing " opens up over time I could see it loosing prime from the upper portion of the housing leaking oil out and create a cycle of both lower end and tappet noise because the pump has to pull oil a relatively long distance .

Blue printed can mean a couple things different to each ear. I would like to know more about what exactly is done to the SLP sourced pump . Tightening the clearance ? Hmmm , looks difficult . Making cuts internaly to reduce cavitation ? More probable and slight porting of the housing but does any of this make for a longer lasting drive ?

Gerotor pumps are not a new thing although I have not seen one quite like this.
 
Hey ya'll!

I sent SLP an e-mail and asked the following:

quote:

Hello and good day!

The following is a quote from this website regarding your LS1 oil pumps:

"Stock LS1 oil pumps have been known to fail without provocation, causing extensive--not to mention expensive--engine damage in the process. To prevent this, SLP has developed a ported-and-blueprinted pump that is virtually bulletproof under even the most severe racing conditions. We have so much confidence in this unit, we've made it an integral part of our 382- and 427-cube stroker packages. Surprisingly affordable, it's an ideal complement to our Double Roller LS1 Timing Chain (#55000). "

My questions are:

1-What exactly is done to these pumps that is different than the stock ones?
2-My car has a terrible valvetrain noise at operating temperature. Some have blamed the OEM pump. Will your pump cure such noise?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Rick

Hopefully we'll get some clues in deciphering this puzzle.
Rick
 
We all need to thank motorbike , for posting what I think is A key to the LS1 noise issues.

That is the cam driven oil pump cavitation causing interupted oil pressure to the mains and the resultant upper engine valve train sounds.

Both Chris and Rick have new engines that I have enough data on to compare and correlate fairly accurately. Revealing a NEW issue of the dieseling sound which I think is the very early indication of this oil pump cavitiation. I think the frequency of the cavitation is fairly high with short duration thus the pressure readings look fine until we have wear issues that compound the interupted oil flow. The lifters are talking to us.

Those that drive the LS1 gently ( rare) MAY see this less and combine that with an inherent engine imbalance from production we may have our cause and effect for the the low end noise that may be contributing and simultaneously masking this issue.

This is a low friction engine setup and if my THEORY is correct is a testament to the bearing construction of the LS1 if interupted oil flow/pump problems is the primary issue.

These 2 guys are the first customers to report dieseling or a suspected lifter/oil pressure issue. Any others ?

Any LS1 members have a aftermarket or modified oil pump with UOA's for us to compare too ?

I'm not a engine builder so help me out if you are.

Once again thanks to Moto for your contribution !

[ December 10, 2003, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]
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Posts: 1257 | From: Greenville , Texas | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged |
 
I think GM ought to fix this issue if indeed we are on to something here.

TD

[ December 10, 2003, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by Terry:
I think GM out to fix this issue if indeed we are on to something here.

TD


In 2005 the LS1 engine will become the LS2 though, so chances are good that a lot of the issues plaguing the LS1 will be solved. When I see my cousin at Christmas I'll grill him for info (he's the engine test engineer at the assembly plant for these engines and I can get way more info from him when I see him in person since he never likes to divulge info through emails in case GM is monitoring any correspondence-which is almost for certain they are)
 
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