GM Electric Cars: Resistance is Futile (& V/I too)

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Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Before I start, eliminate any historical politics (or histrionics) from my following statement in your replies. This is on a scientific level ONLY. We're tossing billions of dollars towards fringe technologies like hybrids/EVs while demonizing gasoline & diesel, which in some form or another have been the primary movers of the entire world for over a century. I'm no tree hugger but I can respect conservation, but it BLOWS MY MIND that the EV thumpers magically disregard all of the hazardous waste generated from these battery packs, and the huge amounts of energy and resources that are expended and consumed during their manufacturing. It's the dirty little secret that EV pushers like to forget. Anyways, my point: there are plenty of other techniques to improve MPG, and why are synthetic fuels not discussed? Not bio-fuels made from edibles that require large government subsidies and price fixing to be viable; Germany made synthetic fuels back in WWII and yet there are no developments on that front.

The infrastructure for gasoline didn't appear overnight, and that was with an abundant supply. Infrastructure to reliably support millions of EVs is neither cheap nor quick. The final dirty secret that EV thumpers tend to forget is, where do you think all of the electricity comes from? Oh yeah, either oil fired or nuclear power plants. Only about a tenth of the grid power comes from renewables, which are not exactly 'clean' to manufacture in the first place, either.


Please do tell what can't be easily recycled...

Let's see... Roughly by mass, in a Li-ion battery we have:

- Copper current collector
- Aluminum current collector
- Steel or aluminum can
- Graphite and metal oxide wash coats on the electrodes
- liquid electrolyte (VOC)
- polymer separator
- sealing materials

Lead acid batteries are about 97% recyclable.

What in there exactly can't be easily recycled or cleanly incinerated?

Nothing. Recovery of the base materials is very well within the realm of recycling practices.

One electrode is graphite - easily incinerated. The other is nickel, cobalt and aluminum (typically) in an oxide form, in a graphite matrix. Burn off the graphite and you easily recover the other metals.

Mining of these things may not be pleasant, but neither is fracking or recovery of petroleum from the ground.

And if done right (i.e. hybrids, PHEVs and anti-idle packs), you get most of the bang for less buck and assured range.
 
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
My guess is, in 10 years, hybrids will be 50% of vehicles, and full-electrics will be 40%, with 10% still gasoline or natural gas vehicles.
Try more like 20-30 years. Full electrics still need to drop by 50% in cost to compete with cheap oil. And as electrics take share, oil demand falls....keeping oil low cost for a long time.
That makes sense. I read a forecast recently that said fuel prices will be kept low as electrics begin phasing in more. About electrics dropping by 50%, analysts are saying this will happen over the next 10 years or so. https://cleantechnica.com/2017/02/13/electric-vehicle-battery-prices-falling-faster-expected/
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1108...0-80-soon-after
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I agree that a PHEV is a more expensive battery, but its a heck of a lot less battery and money than a true EV, and retains all the goodness of running off liquid fuels. It just optimizes the consumption.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Where are we going to get all this future electricity ?


Liquid fuels, of course. Cant beat the density. Its just about how you employ them...


Yep, I can't see liquid fuels disappearing anytime.

The Audi concept car a few years ago that had 100km at 100km/h on batteries as it's design point, with an IC/Generator, and a properly predictive GPS that would know that the last two miles into my place it cam pick up 150M of elevation change...if I go to sydney that way, it can harvest a couple hundred metres at the Sydney end...

That's where I see things.

(But, and this has me head scratching, the trains from here are electric, and used to regeneratively brake into the wires and help their mates climb the hill...they disabled that and installed resistor banks on the trains themselves)...we used to have electric locos that did the same too.
 
The range has to be better as well. As these cars age the batteries don't hold the charge like they did brand new. I can see a GovMo electric vehicle driving through a deep puddle and ZAP, a bright blue flash and then smoke.

Where are they going to get all this electricity? Current regulations means years of planning even before the first shovel of dirt is turned. The greenies will want the electric vehicles but throw a tantrum on more power plants.
 
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Before I start, eliminate any historical politics (or histrionics) from my following statement in your replies. This is on a scientific level ONLY. We're tossing billions of dollars towards fringe technologies like hybrids/EVs while demonizing gasoline & diesel, which in some form or another have been the primary movers of the entire world for over a century. I'm no tree hugger but I can respect conservation, but it BLOWS MY MIND that the EV thumpers magically disregard all of the hazardous waste generated from these battery packs, and the huge amounts of energy and resources that are expended and consumed during their manufacturing. It's the dirty little secret that EV pushers like to forget. Anyways, my point: there are plenty of other techniques to improve MPG, and why are synthetic fuels not discussed? Not bio-fuels made from edibles that require large government subsidies and price fixing to be viable; Germany made synthetic fuels back in WWII and yet there are no developments on that front.

The infrastructure for gasoline didn't appear overnight, and that was with an abundant supply. Infrastructure to reliably support millions of EVs is neither cheap nor quick. The final dirty secret that EV thumpers tend to forget is, where do you think all of the electricity comes from? Oh yeah, either oil fired or nuclear power plants. Only about a tenth of the grid power comes from renewables, which are not exactly 'clean' to manufacture in the first place, either.


Well said. The law of unintended consequences always gets its say in these matters. Most ignore this law until it is too late and the genie has already escaped from the bottle to do her nasty business.
 
China accounts for around 40% of GM's sales volume and is pushing full-electric car production aggressively through incentives, subsidies and coercion. It will be difficult for GM or any foreign maker to maintain its market share there unless it goes all-in on electrics. So we're going along for the ride.
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
Electric cars have their places but where will the electricity come from? California's power grid can't handle the air conditioner load on hot days for example.


You can get creative and have different electric rates at different times. That would encourage a more even use of the capacity -- for example, when the office space closes, ou drop the rates for residential so that they can charge the cars overnight.

Shannow will have a better idea on how this can be done. The capacity is there, you just need to manage it differently.
 
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Before I start, eliminate any historical politics (or histrionics) from my following statement in your replies. This is on a scientific level ONLY. We're tossing billions of dollars towards fringe technologies like hybrids/EVs while demonizing gasoline & diesel, which in some form or another have been the primary movers of the entire world for over a century. I'm no tree hugger but I can respect conservation, but it BLOWS MY MIND that the EV thumpers magically disregard all of the hazardous waste generated from these battery packs, and the huge amounts of energy and resources that are expended and consumed during their manufacturing. It's the dirty little secret that EV pushers like to forget. Anyways, my point: there are plenty of other techniques to improve MPG, and why are synthetic fuels not discussed? Not bio-fuels made from edibles that require large government subsidies and price fixing to be viable; Germany made synthetic fuels back in WWII and yet there are no developments on that front.

The infrastructure for gasoline didn't appear overnight, and that was with an abundant supply. Infrastructure to reliably support millions of EVs is neither cheap nor quick. The final dirty secret that EV thumpers tend to forget is, where do you think all of the electricity comes from? Oh yeah, either oil fired or nuclear power plants. Only about a tenth of the grid power comes from renewables, which are not exactly 'clean' to manufacture in the first place, either.


We need to go back to horses. I'm sure someone had this exact rant in the 1920-s
 
I bought a '17 Prius Prime in June and now have over 5000 miles on it. It has been getting 30 miles on battery (all electric). When the battery is depleted, it it switches to hybrid mode and still gets in the mid 50s mpg.
This is very similar to the first generation Chevy Volt but with much better MPG when in hybrid mode.
I can go many days in a month without using any gas at all. The penalty of having a heavy battery pack is nearly nonexistent in this case.

When on long road trips, I have a range of over 550 miles and don't have to worry about recharge stations and wasting hours recharging.
The future would not be bad at all with more vehicles like this.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Where are we going to get all this future electricity ?


Home roof top solar...??
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
I've driven a BMW i3 and Tesla Model S, and now I'd like to convince a Chevy dealership to hand me the keys to a Bolt. I hear they are very quick and handle OK.


I love our i3, it's saving us around $250 per month on gas. I still prefer my 2er, but the i3 is hardly a penalty box.
 
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
Home roof top solar...??


Paid for with what...? Oh yeah, Government subsidies charged forward to every man, woman, and child of the future. Photovoltaics is a good technology, but even the best commercially available panels are still in the low-to-mid-20%-efficient range. That means the required space for these panels would cover more than half of the average ranch home's roof (for about 10kW), and you would need around 6+ hours of unimpeded sunlight every day (with your car plugged in the entire time!!) to charge a completely dead EV. Plus, a 10kW system will easily set you back $1+ per watt (slightly less with those not-free incentives to purchase solar), so on top of your car payment you've now got $8-10k in photovoltaic system payments. Plus, it's only good for a small portion of the day unless you live in the deep south. Still sound like a feasible replacement for petroleum-based liquids?

There are plenty of useful things that photovoltaics can do, but rapid-charging a couple-hundred VDC battery pack is not one of them. Plus again, on top of the poor efficiency, you are tying up literally TONS of raw materials and inherent energy in the construction of the panels, racks, inverters, and wiring. There's a reason Government provides incentives to purchase solar... because any financially-savvy person would look at the naked ROI of a photovoltaic system and run away!!! Other than this unachievable best-case scenario... the majority of carbon-based fuels will just shift from personal auto usage to public and private power plant usage. Liquid fuels will still be used to generate the root motive force of the EV fleet.

Oh and to the horse-and-buggy 1920s comment, I completely disagree- the technologies are out there to move us beyond EV and liquid fuels. But they are either not funded, or suppressed, or just outright eliminated because they challenge the hegemony of TPTB and the too-big-to-fail oil companies. As the X-Files so wisely shared, "The truth is out there."
 
I guess if we are going to move to self driving cars, may as well go right to the slot car model and run cars directly off the grid!
You've also got 1/3 of the urban landscape paved for cars already, so someone needs to develop solar or thermal electricity production that can be paved over or driven on. Then you've got rid of some of the costs of transmission on the grid, and battery storage in the vehicles can be much smaller.
 
Originally Posted By: ems1
I bought a '17 Prius Prime in June .... The penalty of having a heavy battery pack is nearly nonexistent in this case.
When on long road trips, I have a range of over 550 miles and don't have to worry about recharge stations and wasting hours recharging.
The future would not be bad at all with more vehicles like this.

The penalty isn't too bad, yet I'd rather just take the 52+ MPG without the big battery and get a lower price too. I prefer either all-electric, or a non-plug hybrid. Every positive attribute you now enjoy would be in place with a regular non-plug hybrid Prius, except the first 30 miles in the morning would be at the usual 52+ MPG, very efficient anyway, so who really needs that first 30 miles electric?

Da Future isn't looking bad at all with these. Electric motors fill in the low-rpm gas engine band nicely for an improved experience.

Just by going hybrid, there is around a 30% decrease in fuel consumption in any vehicle, applicable to F-150's as well as Prius-sized cars.
One example: Honda CR-V gas-only gets 30 MPG, and a hybrid version could easily get 40 MPG (combined city/hiway). An all-electric version of the Honda CR-V with the Chevy Bolt's battery pack slung underneath would get 200 miles range easily. --- All 3 CR-V versions would be great to drive and marketable to most.

Originally Posted By: MCompact
I love our i3, it's saving us around $250 per month on gas. I still prefer my 2er, but the i3 is hardly a penalty box.

Now if we can just get other car makers to use the BMW i3's carbon composite body or similar, and that improves the game right there! Alas, still too expensive; Tesla's Model 3 is mostly aluminum and steel.
 
This is interesting and is contrary to what one sees on Ford boards, where the primary complaint about the Cmax involves disappointing fuel economy.
If you're actually seeing 45 mpg out of yours, then fuel economy in actual use for some owners must be very satisfactory, although still inferior to a very low-tech, cheap to build liter car.
Geo Metros were capable of better fuel economy twenty years ago, although the obvious penalty was that you had to drive one.
 
Originally Posted By: ems1
I bought a '17 Prius Prime ...
The future would not be bad at all with more vehicles like this.


I truly admire the capabilities of the Prius. It is absolutely a high performance car, albiet one that performs remarkably well on very little gas. However, I don't care for them from a driver's car point of view. The Prius does not accelerate, corner or brake with enough authority to please any true enthusiast. My mother loves her Prius, and rightly so. I enjoy my turbocharged S2000. AND I would truly enjoy a modern version of the original 2 seat Tesla.

Electric drive is amazingly efficient under rapid acceleration. Force = mass x acceleration. Other than some very minor resistance losses, it uses no more energy to accelerate quickly, than to do so slowly, with electric drive.
 
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Before I start, eliminate any historical politics (or histrionics) from my following statement in your replies. This is on a scientific level ONLY. We're tossing billions of dollars towards fringe technologies like hybrids/EVs while demonizing gasoline & diesel, which in some form or another have been the primary movers of the entire world for over a century. I'm no tree hugger but I can respect conservation, but it BLOWS MY MIND that the EV thumpers magically disregard all of the hazardous waste generated from these battery packs, and the huge amounts of energy and resources that are expended and consumed during their manufacturing. It's the dirty little secret that EV pushers like to forget. Anyways, my point: there are plenty of other techniques to improve MPG, and why are synthetic fuels not discussed? Not bio-fuels made from edibles that require large government subsidies and price fixing to be viable; Germany made synthetic fuels back in WWII and yet there are no developments on that front.

The infrastructure for gasoline didn't appear overnight, and that was with an abundant supply. Infrastructure to reliably support millions of EVs is neither cheap nor quick. The final dirty secret that EV thumpers tend to forget is, where do you think all of the electricity comes from? Oh yeah, either oil fired or nuclear power plants. Only about a tenth of the grid power comes from renewables, which are not exactly 'clean' to manufacture in the first place, either.


Swtiching to electrics will be a 30-50 year process. You have to think LONG TERM.....
 
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
Home roof top solar...??


Paid for with what...? Oh yeah, Government subsidies charged forward to every man, woman, and child of the future. Photovoltaics is a good technology, but even the best commercially available panels are still in the low-to-mid-20%-efficient range. That means the required space for these panels would cover more than half of the average ranch home's roof (for about 10kW), and you would need around 6+ hours of unimpeded sunlight every day (with your car plugged in the entire time!!) to charge a completely dead EV. Plus, a 10kW system will easily set you back $1+ per watt (slightly less with those not-free incentives to purchase solar), so on top of your car payment you've now got $8-10k in photovoltaic system payments. Plus, it's only good for a small portion of the day unless you live in the deep south. Still sound like a feasible replacement for petroleum-based liquids?

There are plenty of useful things that photovoltaics can do, but rapid-charging a couple-hundred VDC battery pack is not one of them. Plus again, on top of the poor efficiency, you are tying up literally TONS of raw materials and inherent energy in the construction of the panels, racks, inverters, and wiring. There's a reason Government provides incentives to purchase solar... because any financially-savvy person would look at the naked ROI of a photovoltaic system and run away!!! Other than this unachievable best-case scenario... the majority of carbon-based fuels will just shift from personal auto usage to public and private power plant usage. Liquid fuels will still be used to generate the root motive force of the EV fleet.

Oh and to the horse-and-buggy 1920s comment, I completely disagree- the technologies are out there to move us beyond EV and liquid fuels. But they are either not funded, or suppressed, or just outright eliminated because they challenge the hegemony of TPTB and the too-big-to-fail oil companies. As the X-Files so wisely shared, "The truth is out there."


Not to be critical of you but your problem is your mind is closed. Think LONG TERM....20 year out. Solar panels won't be subsidized for much longer, the government cannot afford it nor will they need to. Things are changing and we need to change with it. We really don't have a choice, at some point oil WILL be in short supply....it really will be expensive to find and extract it.
 
The way I see it, with all the capacity from Gigafactory lowering battery price, there'll be a big push to hybridize or electrify most residential vehicles. Just adding a small amount of battery with a big electric motor can make a huge difference in fuel economy if your battery replacement cost is relatively low and will continue to get lower. Let's say if you can get a 10mpg boost in fuel economy, with the same performance, for $2k extra initially and $500 every 10 years, why wouldn't choose that option?

Generation is not a problem if you can plug in at night and charge at off peek time (smart meter based). It would flatten out the grid demand so the power company can make money without wasting the output or pay people to take the output at negative rate. The generation will most likely be from existing fuel mix like natural gas and nuclear.

In Europe and Asia, they have alternate days your car can be driven in downtown to reduce air pollution, and EV would be exempted. It would be the main driver of EV demands like the main driver in EV demands in California being single occupant driving in carpool lane for free. People with long commutes will pay a premium to get to work with a shorter commute.

40% of hybrid + EV combined by 2025 is very realistic if the battery cost can be drastically reduced.
 
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