What I wouldn't give for a new Prizm.
GM Closes 4 Plants-Hummer A Goner?
- Thread starter MrCritical
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: blackcherry06
What's wrong with what Toyota did by having both available? People want Tundras one day and Corollas the next. Woo hoo...we have both!!
GM doesn't have that to the extent that Toyota does. And Honda probably saved their skins by not diving in to the full-size realm at all. They stopped with the Pilot and Ridgeline, and have award winning small cars as well a very popular hybrid to fall back on.
GM had the G5, Cobalt, and Aveo when the gas price &*&# hit the fan...none well liked in the small car community. Basically caught with their pants down and V8 SUVs coming out their @ss.
The problem is people are giving imports credit for decisions they never made. Imports (japanese) had no choice but to produce small, economical cars. If those same companies had started in the US, they would be in the same boat. Notice how once Honda, Toyota, Nissan get really strong footholds in the US they went and supersized everything? That is what sold in this country.
The fact is, the imports had no choice but to be diversified. They couldn't stop building smaller cars and they weren't part of the SUV boom. You can fully blame the american companies for not being diversified, but please don't pretend that those import companies were "smarter than that."
What's wrong with what Toyota did by having both available? People want Tundras one day and Corollas the next. Woo hoo...we have both!!
GM doesn't have that to the extent that Toyota does. And Honda probably saved their skins by not diving in to the full-size realm at all. They stopped with the Pilot and Ridgeline, and have award winning small cars as well a very popular hybrid to fall back on.
GM had the G5, Cobalt, and Aveo when the gas price &*&# hit the fan...none well liked in the small car community. Basically caught with their pants down and V8 SUVs coming out their @ss.
The problem is people are giving imports credit for decisions they never made. Imports (japanese) had no choice but to produce small, economical cars. If those same companies had started in the US, they would be in the same boat. Notice how once Honda, Toyota, Nissan get really strong footholds in the US they went and supersized everything? That is what sold in this country.
The fact is, the imports had no choice but to be diversified. They couldn't stop building smaller cars and they weren't part of the SUV boom. You can fully blame the american companies for not being diversified, but please don't pretend that those import companies were "smarter than that."
"New" Prisms are abundant at your local Toyota dealership.
Depends on which import company you're talking about. Toyota's had a full lineup from small cars to reasonably large SUVs for a long time now.
Originally Posted By: blackcherry06
Basically caught with their pants down and V8 SUVs coming out their @ss.
Yep you would have to have the pants doun to have suvs comming out that way
Basically caught with their pants down and V8 SUVs coming out their @ss.
Yep you would have to have the pants doun to have suvs comming out that way
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: blackcherry06
What's wrong with what Toyota did by having both available? People want Tundras one day and Corollas the next. Woo hoo...we have both!!
GM doesn't have that to the extent that Toyota does. And Honda probably saved their skins by not diving in to the full-size realm at all. They stopped with the Pilot and Ridgeline, and have award winning small cars as well a very popular hybrid to fall back on.
GM had the G5, Cobalt, and Aveo when the gas price &*&# hit the fan...none well liked in the small car community. Basically caught with their pants down and V8 SUVs coming out their @ss.
The problem is people are giving imports credit for decisions they never made. Imports (japanese) had no choice but to produce small, economical cars. If those same companies had started in the US, they would be in the same boat. Notice how once Honda, Toyota, Nissan get really strong footholds in the US they went and supersized everything? That is what sold in this country.
The fact is, the imports had no choice but to be diversified. They couldn't stop building smaller cars and they weren't part of the SUV boom. You can fully blame the american companies for not being diversified, but please don't pretend that those import companies were "smarter than that."
I can agree to a certain extent. They came with their strength, the small inexpensive car. Many of them were poor quality and they adapted in many ways.
They adapted in quality and they adpated in terms of what was offered.
I believe the Corolla is the best selling CAR in the world, and the Camry was/is the best selling car in the US. Ford and Toyota were going head to head trying to gain the number one spot in this market segment.
The difference is that Honda, Toyota and others figured out how sell the small cars. GM didn't do as well as Ford. I think the Escort and Focus have been better cars than the Cavalier and Cobalt.
I've driven them all, as well as actually having owned a Plymouth Neon, so I can speak to my perceptions of these cars.
I'm not ready to give up my 1994 Geo Prizm for a newer anything at this point.
(Although, I came close this week, was actually looking at new/used Corolla's, Camry's, even 2007 Ford Taurus fleet cars, and got my GM and Ford supplier numbers in case I decided to go the Pontiac Vibe, or G5 or Ford Focus or Mazda 3 route. I put some more money into the 222K Prizm to see if I can get another 18-24 months out of it!)
I think the current US Focus is falling behind. Years ago, it was at the top or near the top in the magazine comparo's. The last one I read put it 8th out of 8 when compared to other ~35MPG cars when tested by Car and Driver, IIRC. The top car was the VW Rabbit and the Focus was dead last, followed by the Scion xD, and others.
The Corolla came in 3rd, and I think Subaru came in second.
No Honda, nor Mazda in this comparison, FWIW. I don't think GM was in it either, so no Cobalt, nor Aveo, IIRC.
Originally Posted By: blackcherry06
What's wrong with what Toyota did by having both available? People want Tundras one day and Corollas the next. Woo hoo...we have both!!
GM doesn't have that to the extent that Toyota does. And Honda probably saved their skins by not diving in to the full-size realm at all. They stopped with the Pilot and Ridgeline, and have award winning small cars as well a very popular hybrid to fall back on.
GM had the G5, Cobalt, and Aveo when the gas price &*&# hit the fan...none well liked in the small car community. Basically caught with their pants down and V8 SUVs coming out their @ss.
The problem is people are giving imports credit for decisions they never made. Imports (japanese) had no choice but to produce small, economical cars. If those same companies had started in the US, they would be in the same boat. Notice how once Honda, Toyota, Nissan get really strong footholds in the US they went and supersized everything? That is what sold in this country.
The fact is, the imports had no choice but to be diversified. They couldn't stop building smaller cars and they weren't part of the SUV boom. You can fully blame the american companies for not being diversified, but please don't pretend that those import companies were "smarter than that."
I can agree to a certain extent. They came with their strength, the small inexpensive car. Many of them were poor quality and they adapted in many ways.
They adapted in quality and they adpated in terms of what was offered.
I believe the Corolla is the best selling CAR in the world, and the Camry was/is the best selling car in the US. Ford and Toyota were going head to head trying to gain the number one spot in this market segment.
The difference is that Honda, Toyota and others figured out how sell the small cars. GM didn't do as well as Ford. I think the Escort and Focus have been better cars than the Cavalier and Cobalt.
I've driven them all, as well as actually having owned a Plymouth Neon, so I can speak to my perceptions of these cars.
I'm not ready to give up my 1994 Geo Prizm for a newer anything at this point.
(Although, I came close this week, was actually looking at new/used Corolla's, Camry's, even 2007 Ford Taurus fleet cars, and got my GM and Ford supplier numbers in case I decided to go the Pontiac Vibe, or G5 or Ford Focus or Mazda 3 route. I put some more money into the 222K Prizm to see if I can get another 18-24 months out of it!)
I think the current US Focus is falling behind. Years ago, it was at the top or near the top in the magazine comparo's. The last one I read put it 8th out of 8 when compared to other ~35MPG cars when tested by Car and Driver, IIRC. The top car was the VW Rabbit and the Focus was dead last, followed by the Scion xD, and others.
The Corolla came in 3rd, and I think Subaru came in second.
No Honda, nor Mazda in this comparison, FWIW. I don't think GM was in it either, so no Cobalt, nor Aveo, IIRC.
Loss of the Hummer? That's criminal. What two consenting adults do in their own...
Oh, you mean the vehicle? Oh! Well! Good riddance!
Oh, you mean the vehicle? Oh! Well! Good riddance!
Originally Posted By: rjundi
GM has some great vehicles elsewhere in the world. Why not start rebadging and importing and then building if successul, aka current Saturn.
Looks like GM took their best mpg brand and completely changed it. None of the newer Saturns get in the same realm as the sl1/2,sc1/2,l200, etc.
GM has some great vehicles elsewhere in the world. Why not start rebadging and importing and then building if successul, aka current Saturn.
Looks like GM took their best mpg brand and completely changed it. None of the newer Saturns get in the same realm as the sl1/2,sc1/2,l200, etc.
If I needed a new car and didn't work for a GM dealer, a Corolla would be my short list.
Titan, Watch IT!
Titan, Watch IT!
Originally Posted By: MrCritical
........Toyota may be the case of too much, too late with the new Tundra.
May 2008 sales of the Tundra are down by 34%, compared to May 2007.
But surprisingly, sales of the equally gas guzzling Sequoia are up by 75% !
........Toyota may be the case of too much, too late with the new Tundra.
May 2008 sales of the Tundra are down by 34%, compared to May 2007.
But surprisingly, sales of the equally gas guzzling Sequoia are up by 75% !
Selling the hummer name and design in this climate is pretty stupid. It's probably worth next to nothing. Who'd buy it, Jeep? (They did sue a few years ago over the 7-slot grille design.) Better to just put it on the shelf for a few years.
Maybe that wierd indian SUV maker, Tata motors (?) might be interested.
Maybe that wierd indian SUV maker, Tata motors (?) might be interested.
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: TylerL
GM sold something like 16,000 Hummer H2's last year. I think that's good for such a costly, gas guzzling, look at me, off road machine.
They are ugly and and reek of dumb consumer as they are a rebodied Chevrolet that cost too much for what you get.
A while back, someone on here made a priceless comment "congratulating" purchasers of the H3 for having acquired a Chevy Colorado wearing a $20,000 halloween costume. I thought that was a tad harsh, but in the end, I really couldn't disagree. Having been a Marine for darned near 30 years now, I really can't fathom why someone would want something like a hummer anyway. If these dude ranch soldiers had any idea how crude, noise, uncomfortable, and cantankerous the REAL hummer is, they'd not want to have anything to do with it.
Well, as sad as all this is for those folks who work in the jeopardized plants, I was starting to have nightmares about GM actually introducing a hybrid H2. Now THAT really would be ugly!
Looks like I can stop worrying.
Originally Posted By: TylerL
GM sold something like 16,000 Hummer H2's last year. I think that's good for such a costly, gas guzzling, look at me, off road machine.
They are ugly and and reek of dumb consumer as they are a rebodied Chevrolet that cost too much for what you get.
A while back, someone on here made a priceless comment "congratulating" purchasers of the H3 for having acquired a Chevy Colorado wearing a $20,000 halloween costume. I thought that was a tad harsh, but in the end, I really couldn't disagree. Having been a Marine for darned near 30 years now, I really can't fathom why someone would want something like a hummer anyway. If these dude ranch soldiers had any idea how crude, noise, uncomfortable, and cantankerous the REAL hummer is, they'd not want to have anything to do with it.
Well, as sad as all this is for those folks who work in the jeopardized plants, I was starting to have nightmares about GM actually introducing a hybrid H2. Now THAT really would be ugly!
I'm sure Cobalts, Aveos, G5's, G6's and Malibu's are probably looking at somewhere around a 100% increase in production. Look for a lot more manual transmissions where available.
To reiterate, get ready for the REALLY BIG, NEVER BEFORE SEEN rebates on fullsize domestic SUV's.
To reiterate, get ready for the REALLY BIG, NEVER BEFORE SEEN rebates on fullsize domestic SUV's.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I think the current US Focus is falling behind. Years ago, it was at the top or near the top in the magazine comparo's. The last one I read put it 8th out of 8 when compared to other ~35MPG cars when tested by Car and Driver, IIRC. The top car was the VW Rabbit and the Focus was dead last, followed by the Scion xD, and others.
The Corolla came in 3rd, and I think Subaru came in second.
No Honda, nor Mazda in this comparison, FWIW. I don't think GM was in it either, so no Cobalt, nor Aveo, IIRC.
You need to re-read that article. The focus was rated 8th purely by subjective reasoning. If you look at the tests, the Focus either finishes 1st or 2nd (maybe top 3) in all the tests but one, I think. How a car easily wins all the tests in that comparison and gets picked 8th is beyond reason and a clear sign of bias. Why have objective tests if they mean nothing?
As a side, the 2008 focus blows the civic and corolla out of the water. Just test drive all 3 for yourself and see. I have. I'm contemplating trading in the mazda6i for one.
I think the current US Focus is falling behind. Years ago, it was at the top or near the top in the magazine comparo's. The last one I read put it 8th out of 8 when compared to other ~35MPG cars when tested by Car and Driver, IIRC. The top car was the VW Rabbit and the Focus was dead last, followed by the Scion xD, and others.
The Corolla came in 3rd, and I think Subaru came in second.
No Honda, nor Mazda in this comparison, FWIW. I don't think GM was in it either, so no Cobalt, nor Aveo, IIRC.
You need to re-read that article. The focus was rated 8th purely by subjective reasoning. If you look at the tests, the Focus either finishes 1st or 2nd (maybe top 3) in all the tests but one, I think. How a car easily wins all the tests in that comparison and gets picked 8th is beyond reason and a clear sign of bias. Why have objective tests if they mean nothing?
As a side, the 2008 focus blows the civic and corolla out of the water. Just test drive all 3 for yourself and see. I have. I'm contemplating trading in the mazda6i for one.
Originally Posted By: MrCritical
.......He also said the iconic Hummer brand will be reviewed and potentially sold or revamped.............
The boys over at thetruthaboutcars.com are reporting that GM has killed off the HUMMER brand, effective immediately. 171 HUMMER franchises have had the rug pulled out from underneath them. Expect lawsuits.
.......He also said the iconic Hummer brand will be reviewed and potentially sold or revamped.............
The boys over at thetruthaboutcars.com are reporting that GM has killed off the HUMMER brand, effective immediately. 171 HUMMER franchises have had the rug pulled out from underneath them. Expect lawsuits.
Originally Posted By: badtlc
You need to re-read that article. The focus was rated 8th purely by subjective reasoning. If you look at the tests, the Focus either finishes 1st or 2nd (maybe top 3) in all the tests but one, I think. How a car easily wins all the tests in that comparison and gets picked 8th is beyond reason and a clear sign of bias. Why have objective tests if they mean nothing?
No it's not, not by a long shot. The magazines always get accused of bias by people who don't realize that a car is not a spec sheet. The car was rated dead last because they liked driving it the least, and that's all there is to it.
You need to re-read that article. The focus was rated 8th purely by subjective reasoning. If you look at the tests, the Focus either finishes 1st or 2nd (maybe top 3) in all the tests but one, I think. How a car easily wins all the tests in that comparison and gets picked 8th is beyond reason and a clear sign of bias. Why have objective tests if they mean nothing?
No it's not, not by a long shot. The magazines always get accused of bias by people who don't realize that a car is not a spec sheet. The car was rated dead last because they liked driving it the least, and that's all there is to it.
Originally Posted By: blackcherry06
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I think of the Merkeur as well as the little Mercury thing from Australia we had in the 1980's (the name escapes me at the moment, was it called the Capri when it was not being made out of the Mustang plaform?)
You're thinking of the Merkur XR4Ti. Basically a Karmann built car with Ford's 2.3 Turbo. LOVED it.
The Capri was based on the Mazda 323.
There were 3 Capri's. The rwd/euro version, the Mustang clone, and then the 323-based convertible.
Merkur was kinda like a German version of Mercury. Too bad they didn't send the Cossie stuf our way...
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I think of the Merkeur as well as the little Mercury thing from Australia we had in the 1980's (the name escapes me at the moment, was it called the Capri when it was not being made out of the Mustang plaform?)
You're thinking of the Merkur XR4Ti. Basically a Karmann built car with Ford's 2.3 Turbo. LOVED it.
The Capri was based on the Mazda 323.
There were 3 Capri's. The rwd/euro version, the Mustang clone, and then the 323-based convertible.
Merkur was kinda like a German version of Mercury. Too bad they didn't send the Cossie stuf our way...
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Selling the hummer name and design in this climate is pretty stupid. It's probably worth next to nothing. Who'd buy it, Jeep? (They did sue a few years ago over the 7-slot grille design.) Better to just put it on the shelf for a few years.
Maybe that wierd indian SUV maker, Tata motors (?) might be interested.
Lose money selling it? Or lose money keeping it?
Selling Hummer to Jeep/Chrysler/Cerberus would bring things full circle...
Tata? Mahindra?
How about Dongfeng Motor Corporation?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRC_HMMWVs
Selling the hummer name and design in this climate is pretty stupid. It's probably worth next to nothing. Who'd buy it, Jeep? (They did sue a few years ago over the 7-slot grille design.) Better to just put it on the shelf for a few years.
Maybe that wierd indian SUV maker, Tata motors (?) might be interested.
Lose money selling it? Or lose money keeping it?
Selling Hummer to Jeep/Chrysler/Cerberus would bring things full circle...
Tata? Mahindra?
How about Dongfeng Motor Corporation?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRC_HMMWVs
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Because until now, vehicles brought in by GM an Ford and given US "update" haven't done well.
Opel was before my time here in the US, but I don't recall seeing many of those, so I don't think that was a overwealming success. I think of the Merkeur as well as the little Mercury thing from Australia we had in the 1980's (the name escapes me at the moment, was it called the Capri when it was not being made out of the Mustang plaform?)
How about the Ford Contour, the Cadillac Catera, the Saturn L200 and L300? The most recent Pontiac GTO from down under, again not a sales success.
So far, this plan has not really worked out well for GM and Ford.
Maybe fuel prices will help make these offerings more appealing.
However, history tells us it will be a tough sell to bring European tech to the customers of these brands.
First on Saturn L-series/Catera. They are the same car, an Opel and there was no reason to really import it over here at the time. The Merkur was poorly marketed as a performance vehicle which really is not a response to a need in the market but trying a new niche. What person in the world would set foot into a Lincoln dealer especially of the 1980'd and think 1) performance or 2) quality German engineering.
Basically they have excellent fuel misers in Europe/Asia elsewhere and they could fill the gaps in the US market with limited rework.
Because until now, vehicles brought in by GM an Ford and given US "update" haven't done well.
Opel was before my time here in the US, but I don't recall seeing many of those, so I don't think that was a overwealming success. I think of the Merkeur as well as the little Mercury thing from Australia we had in the 1980's (the name escapes me at the moment, was it called the Capri when it was not being made out of the Mustang plaform?)
How about the Ford Contour, the Cadillac Catera, the Saturn L200 and L300? The most recent Pontiac GTO from down under, again not a sales success.
So far, this plan has not really worked out well for GM and Ford.
Maybe fuel prices will help make these offerings more appealing.
However, history tells us it will be a tough sell to bring European tech to the customers of these brands.
First on Saturn L-series/Catera. They are the same car, an Opel and there was no reason to really import it over here at the time. The Merkur was poorly marketed as a performance vehicle which really is not a response to a need in the market but trying a new niche. What person in the world would set foot into a Lincoln dealer especially of the 1980'd and think 1) performance or 2) quality German engineering.
Basically they have excellent fuel misers in Europe/Asia elsewhere and they could fill the gaps in the US market with limited rework.
- Status
