GM to close Ohio SUV factory Dec. 23

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Originally Posted By: steve20
Modern muscle cars and 18MPG?????
the 02 Corvette gets 19 in city driving and 29 on the highway at 70mph. With 405 hp on tap, what more could you ask for? The 95 Corvette gets the same fuel mileage, but alas, has only 340 hp.
I rarely visit a gas station with them


35mpg for 200hp, but same acceleration.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

My dad drives a Town Car, my mother an Expedition. She feels safe sitting up high, and can afford to put fuel in it. He enjoys the luxury and plush ride of the Townie. He can also afford to put fuel in it. Why is it inappropriate for people to drive what they LIKE?

I am MUCH more concerned about the SAFETY of what people are driving; the state of (dis)repair of the vehicles on the roads around me and how they are driven, than what the vehicles in question actually ARE.



How is two vehicles that can't brake or turn very well safe? Riding high is fallacy. That's because you are looking at the car in front, not two cars ahead to gauge momentum.
 
Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Originally Posted By: kelpie
It's a shame. I never had a problem with GM quality, but they did put all their eggs in one basket with the trucks and SUV's.


Reality check time...

GM isn't the only one of the big 3 that put all of their eggs in one basket with the trucks and SUVs. They ALL did.

One doesn't have to look any further than the F150 to realize this.


I never said the rest didn't. I thought this discussion was about GM closing an SUV assembly plant.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Lets not forget the lack in American quality for a long time too. The Unions didn't help either, and made it very hard for the US automaker to compete, (sorry to offend anyone in a union, this is my opinion and how I see it).


Having taken apart cars made by Ford, Dodge, GM, Hyundai, and Mazda, I can observe...

GM and Dodge use junk gaskets. Some improvement is they mostly switched to o-rings on thermostat outlets.

GM really thinks metallurgy through; steel bolts into aluminum etc are antisiezed and come out easily after many years. Hyundai and Mazda were the worst for this. Ford engineered a stupid pinch bolt on the rear spindle of their taurus that has exposed threads that rust, making snapping the bolt likely. However I can see how it helps them throw the cars together two seconds faster on the line.

Ford and GM designers cover lower doors and rocker panels with plastic junk that makes the cars look cool but trap water and salt for incredible localized corrosion. Maybe others too.

I have NEVER come across a part that was undertorqued, misassembled, welded improperly, etc. I have come across lots of cheap parts made of lousy pot metal or plastic that gets brittle in underhood temps.

So I can't fault the hourly line worker for shoddy cars let alone a misallocated desicion of what cars & SUVs to make at what lines, where. That the unions are doing well enough simply mean they're better negotiators than the boobs running the makers are... and I can't fault them for that.
 
My '89 S-10 was assembled in this facility. Sad to see GM going down like this no matter whose fault it is
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I want to do my part: my next new car purchase will be a GM product next year but with credit so tight, I'm not sure I'll be able to get a loan
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"I see no reason for anyone driving a Yokon XL class SUV or a F(1/2/3)50 with spanking clean flat beds on our roads, no matter how much they is use for such behemoths.

Period, most Americans have some of the worst auto buying habits, need to learn a lesson or two from the Europeans. "

Yeah, get smart and buy a fabcy sporty car that gets less mileage city than a 3/4 ton diesel pickup, or a minivan that gets the same. Review after review of cars in the local paper are about higher output V6 somethings, vehicles that can get pretty bad city mileage, but that's what people evidently want.
 
Originally Posted By: ffracer
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

My dad drives a Town Car, my mother an Expedition. She feels safe sitting up high, and can afford to put fuel in it. He enjoys the luxury and plush ride of the Townie. He can also afford to put fuel in it. Why is it inappropriate for people to drive what they LIKE?

I am MUCH more concerned about the SAFETY of what people are driving; the state of (dis)repair of the vehicles on the roads around me and how they are driven, than what the vehicles in question actually ARE.



How is two vehicles that can't brake or turn very well safe? Riding high is fallacy. That's because you are looking at the car in front, not two cars ahead to gauge momentum.


Town Cars have VERY large brakes, twin-piston calipers and police cruiser inspired suspension. You have no clue what you are talking about.

An Expedition is no worse than a pick-up truck.

Riding high allows you to see FURTHER ahead than you could in a car. I think you have this backwards. Otherwise Transport truck drivers would be sitting on the asphalt.

Most people's SKILL is FAR outpaced by the capability of the vehicle, but you keep trying to spin it any way you like.
 
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May not be the place for this, but the big 3 didn't have to build junk in the 1970's....

If GM had used iron liners in the Vega engine, quality valve-stem seals, and rustproofed the bodies properly, we'd probably be talking about this being a great, reliable, fun car.

If Ford had taken the recommendation to put proper 'gas tank protectors' on the Pinto, it would never have become the liability example it is today.

I know it is easy to consider these as 'hindsight' talking, it isn't - at the time, in the 1970's, it was clearly known that these things needed to be done to these cars to make them decent.
 
I agree. I have to wonder if (or why) it is really THAT hard to build a decent small car.
Not to beat a dead horse, but the Vega I had I bought used with about 25K miles on it. By 50K miles the engine was basically dead. They were considered "throw away" engines. A replacement engine was more $$$ than what the 3 or 4 year old car was worth.

The Pinto 2.3 engine - while it would last considerably longer than the Vega, it really didn't get that great of MPG, and really didn't have that much power.
I owned a couple of Pintos and worked on countless others. To me, the biggest joke of all was when Ford put that same 2.3 liter engine in the Mustang II! To me, Mustang and 4 cylinder engine should NOT be used in the same sentence!
 
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Well, the British Cortina engine (I THINK) was in the orginal Pinto (1.6L ..or Formula Ford engine). The 2.3 was in the Hugh Downs "550lbs of road hugging weight" Pinto ..which was merely a nose and a tail away from a Mustang II. Yes, they were both Pinto's in different clothing.
 
Town Cars have VERY large brakes, twin-piston calipers and police cruiser inspired suspension. You have no clue what you are talking about.

An Expedition is no worse than a pick-up truck.

Riding high allows you to see FURTHER ahead than you could in a car. I think you have this backwards. Otherwise Transport truck drivers would be sitting on the asphalt.

Most people's SKILL is FAR outpaced by the capability of the vehicle, but you keep trying to spin it any way you like.

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Having driven both vehicles, both have less than average handling. and that's generous. A rolling lounge chair isn't exactly responsive. BTW, I have a Ford Ranger. Big mass with soft suspension = slow and sloppy handling. Works great as a pickup, but a Focus will outbrake, outhandle, and out accelerate because of simple physics.

Why are racing cars low to the ground instead of high chairs on tall suspensions? Hmmmm....

great if you like big cars, no criticism there, but they are not safer unless you hit a Geo Metro (or Pontiac Firefly, etc.). Mass is only one part of the equation.
 
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Depends on the year of Townie. What year did you drive? Mine was a "couch" year, but my dad's '03 feels NOTHING like mine used to (mine has been upgraded substantially and will and HAS out-handled a new body style Mercury Cougar as an example). Dad's handles and stops very well. Scary is a mid 90's LeSabre........

Race cars are driven by race drivers.

How many people on the road are qualified to drive race cars? How many wrecked supercars, Porsche's, Ferrari's, Corvette's....etc have you seen? This is the point I am making.

Regardless of the vehicle's handling CAPABILITY, it is only as good as the person behind the wheel. Driver err plays the biggest roll here. A person with poor driving skill can just as easily put a small sedan in the ditch when attempting to perform an evasive manoeuvrer than they can a large SUV.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: steve20
Modern muscle cars and 18MPG?????
the 02 Corvette gets 19 in city driving and 29 on the highway at 70mph. With 405 hp on tap, what more could you ask for? The 95 Corvette gets the same fuel mileage, but alas, has only 340 hp.
I rarely visit a gas station with them

35mpg for 200hp, but same acceleration.


Same acceleration as what?
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Depends on the year of Townie. What year did you drive? Mine was a "couch" year, but my dad's '03 feels NOTHING like mine used to (mine has been upgraded substantially and will and HAS out-handled a new body style Mercury Cougar as an example). Dad's handles and stops very well. Scary is a mid 90's LeSabre........

Race cars are driven by race drivers.

How many people on the road are qualified to drive race cars? How many wrecked supercars, Porsche's, Ferrari's, Corvette's....etc have you seen? This is the point I am making.

Regardless of the vehicle's handling CAPABILITY, it is only as good as the person behind the wheel. Driver err plays the biggest roll here. A person with poor driving skill can just as easily put a small sedan in the ditch when attempting to perform an evasive manoeuvrer than they can a large SUV.


Points well taken. Scary IS a 90s LeSabre. Had one for rental car. Whoa... It was like the steering turned 1/2 turn and nothing happened!!!
 
Originally Posted By: ffracer
Points well taken. Scary IS a 90s LeSabre. Had one for rental car. Whoa... It was like the steering turned 1/2 turn and nothing happened!!!


I believe that Buick promoted that and referred to it as "Dynaride"...

The steering wheel and the brake pedal both felt like they were connected to a wet, soggy noodle.

It was a selling point at a time when the market for Buicks was cornered by bluehairs.

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Darwin was right, and even though it no longer applies to people, it does to business.

Companies that produce products that customers want will survive.

Companies that don't - won't.

The big three made some mistakes along the way, and payment is now due.
 
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Originally Posted By: My442
Darwin was right, and even though it no longer applies to people, it does to business.

Companies that produce products that customers want will survive.

Companies that don't - won't.

The big three made some mistakes along the way, and payment is now due.


Ford will recover. They are small enough...... I don't know about Chrysler. GM has the largest, most diverse product line, the most employees and thus the most legacy costs. This is hurting them the most......

It's a lot easier to turn around a Chris-Craft than it is the QE II.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: MaximaGuy
A big Ford dealership went under here in Dublin,CA.

The companies that made their surviability on large behomths are paying a price. This downturn is long overdue, I see no reason for anyone driving a Yokon XL class SUV or a F(1/2/3)50 with spanking clean flat beds on our roads, no matter how much they is use for such behemoths.

Period, most Americans have some of the worst auto buying habits, need to learn a lesson or two from the Europeans.




People drive what they WANT to drive. Not everybody is obsessive about what fuel costs; and it costs a PITTANCE here, compared to what it costs in Europe.


And some folks drive what they have to. I have an F250 I tow with. I have an Envoy because it is big enough for my daughters wheelchair in the back. A great vehicle except for really poor fuel mileage for it's size. I get 10MPG from the Eff Two Fiddy when I'm towing 8500 pounds, plus people in the cab, vs. 13 empty, taking my daughter to school in the Envoy. I drive a Rendezvous because that huge cavern in the rear swallows all of my parts I use to do my daily work. And gasoline prices, even at 4.00 a gallon we are light years ahead of Europe on pricing, and with the economy dropping like a rock, gas is now down below 3.00 a gallon today, with E85 coming in around 2.50 . And I will take any of my vehicles over a Mini Cooper, Smart Car, or a Mr Bean car anyday.
 
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And gasoline prices, even at 4.00 a gallon we are light years ahead of Europe on pricing


What most of us forget is the most of the aligned industrial nations, which have these high gas prices, aren't providing a global strategic defense umbrella over much of the globes petroleum supply. I don't think that many of them really have a national defense program that's all that taxing.

That is, we're not paying at the pump. That doesn't mean we're getting cheap fuel.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

What most of us forget is the most of the aligned industrial nations, which have these high gas prices, aren't providing a global strategic defense umbrella over much of the globes petroleum supply. I don't think that many of them really have a national defense program that's all that taxing.

That is, we're not paying at the pump. That doesn't mean we're getting cheap fuel.


you mean the USA spending 10 billion in Iraq every month?
 
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