GM Closes 4 Plants-Hummer A Goner?

[bretfraz]

The Saturn L-series and the Cadillac Catera were NOT the same car.

The Saturn was based on the Opel Vectra B, a front wheel drive platform roughly shared with the Saab 9-3.

The Cadillac Catera was based on the Opel Omega B. It's rear wheel drive and was offered with a 3.0L V6 in the Catera.

One problem with both cars was they were rather dated by the time they came to N. America. The Vectra had been around 5 years before it came to the states as a Saturn. The Omega was almost as old. Even the current Saturn Astra is scheduled to be replaced in 2010. If the NA market would get a true state-of-the-art European car, it might be a good seller.

For too long both GM and Ford have looked at their ancient Euro cars and thought, "We need to get a couple more years out of these old nails. Let's dress em up, put a new name on them and sell them to unsuspecting Americans and Canadians as something all new." No wonder they've mostly been failures.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: glennc
Originally Posted By: badtlc
You need to re-read that article. The focus was rated 8th purely by subjective reasoning. If you look at the tests, the Focus either finishes 1st or 2nd (maybe top 3) in all the tests but one, I think. How a car easily wins all the tests in that comparison and gets picked 8th is beyond reason and a clear sign of bias. Why have objective tests if they mean nothing?


No it's not, not by a long shot. The magazines always get accused of bias by people who don't realize that a car is not a spec sheet. The car was rated dead last because they liked driving it the least, and that's all there is to it.


You might have a point if the article considered the test results at all in their rankings, but they didnt. So you don't have a point. Again, the tests were useless and the article should have been labeled "cars that get over 30mpg ranked by our own superficial tastes with no regards to actual performance, gas mileage, costs, or what other people might like"

 

[javacontour]

You can say all you want about subjective this and test number that. The only numbers that will really matter is how many each car makers sells.

So looking at that, it's likely the #3 Corolla is #1 where it counts, in the sales numbers.

Subjective sells cars. People buy cars without looking at the numbers all the time.

Ask my wife why she bought a Camry. Not because it's a decent car, but because it had the best looking tail lights. (I'm not kidding!)

So subjective sells to the general public.

You an I, car enthusiasts look more at the numbers, but even car guys and gals go on subjective things as well. For example, the new Pontiac G8 has great numbers, but I wasn't so impressed with the cruise control or the digital displays in the car.

I probably wouldn't get one based on those "subjective" complaints.

So you can decry the subjective judgments of the authors. What would be better is for Ford to take a look at why they came in last, see if it matches what actual shoppers are saying about the car, and then address those issues if they find the complaints are resulting in lost sales.

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: javacontour

I think the current US Focus is falling behind. Years ago, it was at the top or near the top in the magazine comparo's. The last one I read put it 8th out of 8 when compared to other ~35MPG cars when tested by Car and Driver, IIRC. The top car was the VW Rabbit and the Focus was dead last, followed by the Scion xD, and others.

The Corolla came in 3rd, and I think Subaru came in second.

No Honda, nor Mazda in this comparison, FWIW. I don't think GM was in it either, so no Cobalt, nor Aveo, IIRC.


You need to re-read that article. The focus was rated 8th purely by subjective reasoning. If you look at the tests, the Focus either finishes 1st or 2nd (maybe top 3) in all the tests but one, I think. How a car easily wins all the tests in that comparison and gets picked 8th is beyond reason and a clear sign of bias. Why have objective tests if they mean nothing?

As a side, the 2008 focus blows the civic and corolla out of the water. Just test drive all 3 for yourself and see. I have. I'm contemplating trading in the mazda6i for one.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: TylerL
GM sold something like 16,000 Hummer H2's last year. I think that's good for such a costly, gas guzzling, look at me, off road machine.
They are ugly and and reek of dumb consumer as they are a rebodied Chevrolet that cost too much for what you get.


A while back, someone on here made a priceless comment "congratulating" purchasers of the H3 for having acquired a Chevy Colorado wearing a $20,000 halloween costume. I thought that was a tad harsh, but in the end, I really couldn't disagree. Having been a Marine for darned near 30 years now, I really can't fathom why someone would want something like a hummer anyway. If these dude ranch soldiers had any idea how crude, noise, uncomfortable, and cantankerous the REAL hummer is, they'd not want to have anything to do with it.

Well, as sad as all this is for those folks who work in the jeopardized plants, I was starting to have nightmares about GM actually introducing a hybrid H2. Now THAT really would be ugly!

Looks like I can stop worrying.
A real humv is a real interesting off road "probably real good though engineered by ones lacking common sense" vehicle that has purpose.

 

[JTK]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
What does that say about the imports then? They were just now jumping kneck deep into the massive SUV and power truck waters. American companies had been reaping the profits of those waters for over a decade...I dont think you can say imports were ahead of the curve


Absolutely. GM was building products that could be sold for a profit. I don't know too many buyers who would be willing to pay 20 something grand for a Cavalier, Cobalt, Prizm, etc... Why would any company build and market products that you can't profit from? Import companies jumped on the same bandwagon. I'm sure Toyota doesn't make nearly as much on a Corolla as they do on a RAV4.

Joel

 

[blackcherry06]

Your profit theory is true at any automaker. Lexus doesn't make the same return on an ES as they do an LS.

I think it's important for GM to make greater strides in creating entry-level cars with good quality and content, that can be sold at competitive prices and still yield a profit. If Honda and Toyota can use good materials and screw them together in a high-quality manner, GM should be able to as well...instead of just resigning themselves to saying "ok, good enough". A lower profit margin shouldn't be a reason to just throw a car together and hope it sells well for reasons other than a huge rebate offering.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Speaking of off-roading, who needs a huge 4X4? Ford just won another mfg title in World Rallye Challenge, 2 in a row.

http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=700...%20Title%202007

I'd like to see some of the WRC Rallye type cars over here. Like was said before, the GM/Opel and the Ford-ish Euro hatchbacks...here. That's something that could be done now. Bring back WRC coverage on Speed Channel too!

http://www.wrc.com/

fwiw, the Pugeot and Citroen are awesome, wish I could get one.

 

[Audi Junkie]

 

[The_Jeff]

Big 3 marketing still seems stuck in 1960 when they reluctantly introduced the falcon, chevy II (nova), etc.

They force the small cars to be some embarrasing plastic penalty box. Even though the powertrain, suspension, and styling are okay they cheat the consumer out of a pleasing interior and nice gadgetry. They might make a $5000 LX package with sunroof, leather, etc, but that looks pretty stupid on a cavalier, neon etc. Pretty soon you're looking at a lesabre that has all that stuff standard plus, well, a bigger body and 2 more cylinders.

Saturn (I repeat myself often) actually made a nice version of the small car when the small car was all they had.

 

[PF52]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Speaking of off-roading, who needs a huge 4X4? Ford just won another mfg title in World Rallye Challenge, 2 in a row.

http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=700...%20Title%202007

I'd like to see some of the WRC Rallye type cars over here. Like was said before, the GM/Opel and the Ford-ish Euro hatchbacks...here. That's something that could be done now. Bring back WRC coverage on Speed Channel too!





Eh, I agree but those rally cars don't cars don't carry the status value that a big SUV does, at least not here in the suburbs. I don't understand it, but looking around my neighborhood one would think that Dupage County, Illinois (Illinois' wealthiest county, per capita), doesn't have any paved roads based on the giant trucks people use to drive their kids to school in the morning. Hmmm, maybe if the roads really weren't paved, those rally cars might seem more appropriate.

Heck, I just heard a Land Rover commercial on the radio, saying some nonsense about how a Land Rover is just what I need to "survive the urban jungle".

Give me a break.

 

[Greaser]

Originally Posted By: Titan
Loss of the Hummer? That's criminal. What two consenting adults do in their own...

Oh, you mean the vehicle? Oh! Well! Good riddance!