GM and Honda Start U.S. Production of Hydrogen Fuel Cells

[buster]

I just don't see how this is a long-term solution. Without massive infrastructure and also safety concerns. Still takes electricity to make fuel.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/hon...ZBAvw7uCOQejveV588J7G2jnPjhxbv-3qXoxQ-p86WIgM

 

[skyactiv]

 

[Triple_Se7en]

I keep hearing on News Radio that Hydrogen will be the primary fuel in the next decade. So far, China is miles ahead of us in harnessing Hydrogen technology.

This is great news really! Both corporations need to kick it into the next gear A.S.A.P

 

[supton]

I still think it's a lousy battery technology. You have to make the hydrogen, then use a really inefficient thing called "compressing" in order to get reasonable density and thus any real amount of energy pumped into a fuel tank. [You know how when you run a compressor it gets hot around the pump area? that's wasted energy, turned into heat. Thus compressing hydrogen to high pressure involves wasted energy.] There's a few other issues in the way, but just these bits to me make it a non-starter.

Not holding my breath. I think it's more of a boondoggle than EV's, and I like EV's. Even though the teething pains and paths taken seem to be showing, we're not ready for alternative methods just yet.

 

[SC Maintenance]

I don't know much about it - but there are multiple ways to commercially produce hydrogen - not just electrolysis, and there working on others also. Also it could be produced with excess energy off peak and stored. If two major auto's are partnering to do it - they must see at least some potential for success. I do see it being regionally limited - but might be an option if your near good hydrogen production / distribution?

 

[TumblrDucks]

Good. Always welcome hiTech manufacture industry. Maybe one day US would export these fuel cells or use them on tanks and other vehicles.

 

[twX]

I still think it's a lousy battery technology. You have to make the hydrogen, then use a really inefficient thing called "compressing" in order to get reasonable density and thus any real amount of energy pumped into a fuel tank. [You know how when you run a compressor it gets hot around the pump area? that's wasted energy, turned into heat. Thus compressing hydrogen to high pressure involves wasted energy.] There's a few other issues in the way, but just these bits to me make it a non-starter.

Yeah, and all that is reflected in the price of hydrogen.

At $15/kg for hydrogen, it costs $70 to fill a Toyota Mirai, which has a rated range of 312 miles. A 2.5L Camry will drink around $30 of fuel to go the same distance, and the Camry costs half as much and has better performance. It can also refuel anywhere. Even a Tesla Model 3 costs less, and could go that distance for well under $10 in electricity.

For fuel cell vehicles to be economical, the cost of hydrogen relative to fossil fuels would have to go way down, and I'm not sure how that's possible, given that fossil fuels are a major input cost to hydrogen production.

 

[Shannow]

I just don't see how this is a long-term solution. Without massive infrastructure and also safety concerns. Still takes electricity to make fuel.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/hon...ZBAvw7uCOQejveV588J7G2jnPjhxbv-3qXoxQ-p86WIgM

The fears around hydrogen are largely a beat-up, like the public fears around nukes...and the banning of HC refrigerants and hemp.

Yes, it can be dangerous...back in the '90s, I built and commissioned a fairly large hydrogen plant, and purification/compression and storage plant...and sice then, there's 250 people who work here, with a 60 tonne generator energised to 22,000 Volts, spinning at 50 revs per second, in a few hundred cubic metres of hydrogen pressurised to 60PSI.

Bitterly aware of the efficiency of the process, as I did all the math back in the day (paper, pen and HP15C), as people were hypothesising frunning IC engines on it.

It's a part of the solution (to whatever the problem is that we are trying to fix)...but we need a better educated populace for the entirety of the process. Attended a webinar where is was explained that it takes 9 pounds of water to make a pound of hydrogen...then uneducated debate ensued about how much more efficient that would get over time.

 

[MolaKule]

In my view it is going down another rabbit hole to garner favor from the ideologues and potential subsidies.

 

[PandaBear]

Hydrogen has 2 problems: it is cracked from fossil fuel or electrolysis cracked from water with electricity. Basically it is either a lower than natural gas density fossil fuel or a battery. Its only advantage as a battery was it should be cheaper than battery in the good range. Today's EV solved that already with improved Li battery. As a fossil fuel derivative it is only good for local emission reduction. The emission reduction vs burning natural gas is much better, but you have to deal with all the problems in storing hydrogen and wasting energy in cracking NG into H2. It might be more efficient if we run the NG in SOFC, but then you are not driving a sexy car, like many EV buyers don't think plug in hybrid or regular hybrid is sexy as they still burn fossil fuel.

I might consider an SOFC car but not a HFC one.

 

[alarmguy]

I just don't see how this is a long-term solution. Without massive infrastructure and also safety concerns. Still takes electricity to make fuel.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/hon...ZBAvw7uCOQejveV588J7G2jnPjhxbv-3qXoxQ-p86WIgM

It’s already is use in everyday warehouses powering fork lifts. The article points outs additional uses.
It’s also the only logical way to power semi’s if you want to get them off diesel.
A diesel truck can go over 1000 miles without refueling, an EV truck only a couple hundred miles and MASSIVE amount of weight in battery packs, never mind recharge times.

Yup, it’s takes electricity to make fuel but it also takes electricity to charge vehicles.

H2 vehicles are EVs. Just as battery vehicles are EVs and this thread should be in the EV section.

BTW - H2 is not going away, it’s way to convenient for applications. Two of the most successful corporations on planet earth use them. Success comes to those that think out of the box.

https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/su...n-hydrogen-to-help-decarbonize-its-operations

Walmart has been using H2 forklifts for over 10 years.
“Walmart first started using hydrogen-powered vehicles and forklifts in the US in 2012, growing its fleet from an initial 50 to 9,500 today as part of a long-standing agreement with Plug Power”

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/pro...l-models-to-reduce-charging-times/2-1-1500804

 

[oil pan 4]

Hydrogen is dead on arrival. Hydrogen will go away as soon as normies figure out how much it costs.
I'll tell you why. As of November 2023 hydrogen prices are $21 per kg.
The Toyota Mirai, which is the most efficient hydrogen car ever made gets 64 miles per kg combined city/highway. Highway consumption being higher.
That's a fuel cost of 30 cents a mile, more if you drive mostly on the highway.
By comparison my gas guzzler 16mpg Dodge Dakota costs 20 cents a mile.
Wife's hybrid costs less than 10 cents a mile.
My Nissan leaf costs 2 to 3 cents a mile.
I'll tell you what not going to do. I'm not about to explode my cost per mile to play make believe that I'm saving the world.
Once normies abandon hydrogen the only customers will be those spending other people's money or for those whom money is no object and wish to virtue signal that they're saving the world between private jet flights.

 

[oil pan 4]

I use a portable $160 charger to charge my leaf at home. That hydrogen monstrosity looks like it costs thousands upon thousands of dollars and requires periodic maintenance.

 

[oil pan 4]

I keep hearing on News Radio that Hydrogen will be the primary fuel in the next decade. So far, China is miles ahead of us in harnessing Hydrogen technology.

This is great news really! Both corporations need to kick it into the next gear A.S.A.P

Chinas motivation is they don't want foreign oil.
I heard the same BS in the late 1990s that a large portion of cars would be hydrogen by 2020. Nothing more than wishful thinking.

 

[millerbl00]

Whether its hydrogen or solid-state battery's or something else we have to move in a different direction. Petroleum isn't going to work forever...

 

[alarmguy]

Hydrogen is dead on arrival. Hydrogen will go away as soon as normies figure out how much it costs.
...

Im assuming you saw my post above yours. H2 is not close to dead.
Walmart currently has 9,500 H2 fork lifts, Amazon is well on its way too. With a contract for 11,000 tons of H2 per year starting next year.

Taken from the links I posted on Amazon.
“We already have more than 70 fulfillment centers outfitted with hydrogen storage and dispensing systems, which will allow us to start using green hydrogen to replace fossil fuels. Today, we use that system to power over 15,000 fuel-cell propelled forklifts, with plans to grow that number to 20,000 across 100 fulfillment centers by 2025. That’s just the start,” said Dean Fullerton, vice president of Global Engineering and Security Services at Amazon. “Across Amazon’s operations, we’re exploring and testing the use of other hydrogen applications, such as fuel-cell electric trucks and fuel-cell power generation stations providing electricity to Amazon buildings.”

AS far as consumer vehicles that isnt what the OP is about.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

I just don't see how this is a long-term solution. Without massive infrastructure and also safety concerns. Still takes electricity to make fuel.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/hon...ZBAvw7uCOQejveV588J7G2jnPjhxbv-3qXoxQ-p86WIgM

Do you see EVs at a Long-Term solution?

 

[buster]

Do you see EVs at a Long-Term solution?

No unless some incredible battery technology emerges. I don't think there is a silver bullet.

I'd like to see more nuclear energy utilized.

 

[oil pan 4]

Im assuming you saw my post above yours. H2 is not close to dead.
Walmart currently has 9,500 H2 fork lifts, Amazon is well on its way too. With a contract for 11,000 tons of H2 per year starting next year.

Taken from the links I posted on Amazon.
“We already have more than 70 fulfillment centers outfitted with hydrogen storage and dispensing systems, which will allow us to start using green hydrogen to replace fossil fuels. Today, we use that system to power over 15,000 fuel-cell propelled forklifts, with plans to grow that number to 20,000 across 100 fulfillment centers by 2025. That’s just the start,” said Dean Fullerton, vice president of Global Engineering and Security Services at Amazon. “Across Amazon’s operations, we’re exploring and testing the use of other hydrogen applications, such as fuel-cell electric trucks and fuel-cell power generation stations providing electricity to Amazon buildings.”

AS far as consumer vehicles that isnt what the OP is about.

They fit in the category of:

for those whom money is no object and wish to virtue signal that they're saving the world between private jet flights.

Still dead on arrival.

 

[oil pan 4]

Do you see EVs at a Long-Term solution?

The only reason hydrogen cars exist is to make battery powered cars look viable.