GL4 or GL5 for manual transmission?

[slacktide_bitog]

I plan to change MT oil in a Toyota Matrix in the near future. How does the LiquiMoly product compare to Red Line MT-90? Or will both perform the same in cars that won't be driven aggressively?

Whether you buy it in store or online, L-M is clearly the better option.

In-store, the L-M wins by default. Online, Rock Auto has the best price on it. About $45 for 3 bottles including shipping (so $15 each); don't forget the 5% discount code you can find almost anywhere). If you prefer the in-store option, Napa has it for $20 each with the 20% off promo (you have to buy 3 items to get the Napa discount, and you need 3 bottles anyway)

Both will perform the same in cars that won't be driven aggressively, so get the one that costs less

 

[Elkins45]

Why wouldn’t this work? It’s listed as 75w-90, GL-4, and is specified as a manual transmission fluid. Am I missing something?

Amazon.com

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Why wouldn’t this work? It’s listed as 75w-90, GL-4, and is specified as a manual transmission fluid. Am I missing something?

Amazon.com

View attachment 76792

That fluid is similar to Dexron III and intended for manual transmissions that called for Dexron III prior to the switch to Dexron VI. GM says not to use VI in manual transmissions that use III and to instead use that part number instead (88861800). There are better choices out there.

It is not a 75w90 contrary to the label title Amazon used. It is around the viscosity of Dexron III, which in turn is about half the viscosity of 75w90

 

[MolaKule]

Why wouldn’t this work? It’s listed as 75w-90, GL-4, and is specified as a manual transmission fluid. Am I missing something?

Amazon.com

This is a 75W80 transmission fluid with a 100C viscosity of 7.5 cSt@100C, the same viscosity as a Dexron III/Merc, and was simply a boosted Dexron III/Merc AT fluid. A 75W90 MTF has a viscosity ranging from 13.5cST to 15.5 cSt@100C. Hence, a 75W80 is too thin for an application requiring a 75W90

ACDelco 88861800 ACDelco Manual Transmission Fluid | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - ACDelco Manual Transmission Fluid with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Transmission Fluid at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

I don't know where these people are coming from stating it is a 75W90.

The Amsoil MTG

https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/databulletins/g2077.pdf

and the Redline

MT-90

MT-90 75W90 GL-4 Gear Oil

Popular in Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, VW/Audi, Lotus Elise/Exige, Toyota

www.redlineoil.com

are examples of properly formulated 75W90 GL-4 Manual Transmission Fluids (MTFs).

 

[Elkins45]

This is a 75W80 transmission fluid with a 100C viscosity of 7.5 cSt@100C, the same viscosity as a Dexron III/Merc, and was simply a boosted Dexron III/Merc AT fluid. A 75W90 MTF has a viscosity ranging from 13.5cST to 15.5 cSt@100C. Hence, a 75W80 is too thin for an application requiring a 75W90

ACDelco 88861800 ACDelco Manual Transmission Fluid | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - ACDelco Manual Transmission Fluid with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Transmission Fluid at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

I don't know where these people are coming from stating it is a 75W90.

The Amsoil MTG

https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/databulletins/g2077.pdf

and the Redline

MT-90

MT-90 75W90 GL-4 Gear Oil

Popular in Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, VW/Audi, Lotus Elise/Exige, Toyota

www.redlineoil.com

are examples of properly formulated 75W90 GL-4 Manual Transmission Fluids (MTFs).

Would it work for a transmission that specified 75W-80? I think that's the spec on my other car (Mazda 6)

 

[Mainia]

Long time manual trnmasssion owner here. I have used GL5 once a manual gear box. Never again.
GL5 gear oils are too slippery and your shifting will suck. I don't care if Toyota says you can use it. The MT1 spec on the bottle means nothing either.
It will feel more slippery which you may like but don't expect to change gears without the very occasional crunch.

If you have money to burn, get the Miata owners favorite. It is a true PAO German fluid. Read some reviews and why it gets a 5/5 by hundreds. I put in a VW GTI I once owned.

https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Ford-XT-M5-QS-Synthetic-Transmission/dp/B000NUES82

Did you try Redline’s reformulated GL-5 NS version, that is specify made “to work.”

 

[MolaKule]

Did you try Redline’s reformulated GL-5 NS version, that is specify made “to work.”

None of these oils

Red Line Synthetic Oil. Gear Oil for Differentials

Gear Oil for Differentials

www.redlineoil.com

are suitable for Manual Transmissions as their application is for Differentials.

 

[MolaKule]

Would it work for a transmission that specified 75W-80? I think that's the spec on my other car (Mazda 6)

There are better ones out there.


The next higher viscosity MTL would be the 7.0 to 7.6 cSt@100C versions (SAE 70W75, 75W80) (About the same viscosity as the original DexronIII/Merc)

Royal Purple's Synchromax
Ravenol MTF-2
Honda MTF
VW part number G052512A2
BMW (Pentosin MTF 2) MTF-LT-1, 2 ,3
Tutelo (Petronus, Italy, Product Code 1402)
Pentosin Pro Gear 70W75 (Australia)
Pentosin FFL-4
Redline Power Steering Fluid
RAVENOL STF

 

[Mainia]

None of these oils

Red Line Synthetic Oil. Gear Oil for Differentials

Gear Oil for Differentials

www.redlineoil.com

are suitable for Manual Transmissions as their application is for Differentials.

Same oil, wrong link. NS version is NS version.

75W90NS GL-5 Gear Oil

Designed for transmissions and transaxles - helps to slow synchros for easier shifting across a broad temperature range

www.redlineoil.com

75W140NS GL-5 Gear Oil

Contains extreme pressure additives like our 75W140 GL-5 oil, but lacks friction modifiers to balance slipperiness

www.redlineoil.com

.

 

[930.engineering]

Would it work for a transmission that specified 75W-80? I think that's the spec on my other car (Mazda 6)

I don't think so. As was already pointed out 75W-90 is typically twice as thick as 75W-80.
I'll add that this is at almost any temperature. You may think both are similar when cold
(near freezing) as they both start with 75W, but that's not the case. As a consequence this
other car's gearbox will likely suffer from poor shifting quality in particular when it's cold
(as that's when any gear oil is much thicker than ideal anyway). Not what you want. Get an
appropriate MTF for your Mazda, meaning a 75W-80 GL-4. Only deviate from manufacturer
recommendations if there are issues or significant deviations from normal using conditions.
.

 

[MolaKule]

Same oil, wrong link. NS version is NS version.

75W90NS GL-5 Gear Oil

Designed for transmissions and transaxles - helps to slow synchros for easier shifting across a broad temperature range

www.redlineoil.com

75W140NS GL-5 Gear Oil

Contains extreme pressure additives like our 75W140 GL-5 oil, but lacks friction modifiers to balance slipperiness

www.redlineoil.com

.

Doesn't matter, it is a GL-5 and the application is for:

• Recommended for API GL-5, GL-6, MT-1, MIL-L-2105E and SAE J2360
• Contains extreme pressure additives like our 75W90 GL-5 oil, but lacks friction modifiers to balance slipperiness
• Improved copper corrosion protection to prolong synchro life
• Helps with lock-up on weak limited-slip differentials-compatible with Red Line Limited Slip Friction Modifier for tuning slippage
• Also used with clutch-type LSDs in racing for maximum lock up

The MT-1 transmission specification is for a Heavy Duty OTR truck transmission and has steel components.

MTF's for automobiles and light truck transmissions do not use or need extreme pressure additives, they need Anti-Wear additives.

 

[Bailes1992]

I think the important thing here is to ensure you purchase an MTF in the correct viscosity and largley ignore the API rating. I know the Fuchs Sitofluid 75w80 I use in most MT's is API GL-5 rated despite being an MTF.

TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 | Automotive lubricants | FUCHS LUBRICANTS (UK) PLC

Premium Performance Manual Transmission Fluid for passenger cars. Offering good gearbox efficiency. Suitable as fill for life fluid according to manufacturer.

www.fuchs.com

 

[weasley]

MTF's for automobiles and light truck transmissions do not use or need extreme pressure additives, they need Anti-Wear additives.

True enough, but the page shows recommendations for a manual transaxle, rather than a regular manual transmission. Axles benefit from EP.

 

[ceecbtg]

Long time manual trnmasssion owner here. I have used GL5 once a manual gear box. Never again.
GL5 gear oils are too slippery and your shifting will suck. I don't care if Toyota says you can use it. The MT1 spec on the bottle means nothing either.
It will feel more slippery which you may like but don't expect to change gears without the very occasional crunch.

If you have money to burn, get the Miata owners favorite. It is a true PAO German fluid. Read some reviews and why it gets a 5/5 by hundreds. I put in a VW GTI I once owned.

https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Ford-XT-M5-QS-Synthetic-Transmission/dp/B000NUES82

Actually I'm using it (really Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle alias Ford BO alias BOT 328/130M) on my MT transaxle no-hypoid with +60% torque. Previous was Motul 75w90 GL4/GL5.

Motul 75w90 GL4/GL5
shifting: very smooth warm and little hard cold first miles. Resume good for so thick oil.
formulation: mainly fake synthetic + PAO. Downgraded GL5 pkg.

Castrol SMV 75w90 GL4
shifting: very smooth warm and seems better cold than Motul. Obviously PAO helps and general visco is lower, but pkg too.
formulation: mainly PAO. Classic ZDDP pkg.

Same oil, wrong link. NS version is NS version.

75W90NS GL-5 Gear Oil

Designed for transmissions and transaxles - helps to slow synchros for easier shifting across a broad temperature range

www.redlineoil.com

75W140NS GL-5 Gear Oil

Contains extreme pressure additives like our 75W140 GL-5 oil, but lacks friction modifiers to balance slipperiness

www.redlineoil.com

.

Yes, GL5 NS will work, all there will work better or worse.

Question is commercial advise vs chemical/test reallity.

75w90 GL5 NS has, as most GL4+ and GL5, sulfurized EP additive polysulfide, it offers great load protection, for specific conditions and gears design, but it's really aggresive for typical MT alloys, this is solved with inhibitors as additive, then it passes well known cooper test.

Reallity

Issue 1: It's not the real chemical behaviour after x miles with oil properties and additive depletion.

Issue 2: That commercial cooper test is not full guarantee about chemical corrosion. There are corrosion tests from mass % loss that show as common EP additives like polysulfides and specially pentasulfides (x3,7 damage vs polysulfide) attack these metal alloys inclusive when you see commercial advise "fully compatible and cooper test passed 1a".

 

[MolaKule]

Please use the Reply feature from the Post in which you are responding so we can determine who you are responding to.

True enough, but the page shows recommendations for a manual transaxle, rather than a regular manual transmission. Axles benefit from EP.

Transaxles for front wheel drive vehicles are connected to the hubs via half-shafts and Constant Velocity Joints.

How It Works: The Drivetrain

Whether you drive a 500-hp sports car or a 96-hp economy hatchback, all that potency under your car's or truck's hood is useless if the engine's torque doesn't get to the drivewheels through a complex maze of gears. Here's a primer to help explain that my

www.popularmechanics.com

Hubs and Constant Velocity Joints generally use a grease, so I don't see where wheel bearings receive any lubrication from the transaxle fluid whatsoever.

https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/files/tech/cv-2_grease_prod_info.pdf

 

[MolaKule]

Actually I'm using it (really Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle alias Ford BO alias BOT 328/130M) on my MT transaxle no-hypoid with +60% torque. Previous was Motul 75w90 GL4/GL5.

Motul 75w90 GL4/GL5
shifting: very smooth warm and little hard cold first miles. Resume good for so thick oil.
formulation: mainly fake synthetic + PAO. Downgraded GL5 pkg.

Castrol SMV 75w90 GL4
shifting: very smooth warm and seems better cold than Motul. Obviously PAO helps and general visco is lower, but pkg too.
formulation: mainly PAO. Classic ZDDP pkg.

There are corrosion tests from mass % loss that show as common EP additives like polysulfides and specially pentasulfides (x3,7 damage vs polysulfide) attack these metal alloys inclusive when you see commercial advise "fully compatible and cooper test passed 1a".

Since you have the detailed analyses from the Motul and Castrol fluids would you be willing to share your results here?

Polysulfides are only a part of the EP agent package.

 

[Overfill]

True enough, but the page shows recommendations for a manual transaxle, rather than a regular manual transmission. Axles benefit from EP.

Neither need GL-5 is the point. GL-4 is beyond 'sufficient.' Its pretty uncommon for a passenger car or light truck to need GL-5. You need GL-5 when you have significant loading, such as on hypoid gears. The only MT that has that--that I have found so far--is in MT Subarus, of which I own.

AFAIK/understand, its pretty difficult to formulate/engineer a GL-5 fluid, friction modified for synchronizers, in a way that rivals the litany of GL-4 MTFs. IIRC from @MolaKule 's list, there's only a couple of GL-5 MTF products anyway. (Motul gear 300 has been the MVP for MT Subie owners for a long time.)

 

[930.engineering]

The MT-1 transmission specification is for a Heavy Duty OTR truck transmission and has steel components.

Even worse: From what I remember MT-1 is for transmissions that don't use synchronizers.
Not what you find in a passenger car or light truck. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

I said it before and I say it again, "MT-1" should be banned. It's one of the most misleading
specifications. Another misleading issue is thinking GL-5 would be "better" than GL-4. Using
letters instead of numbers might help.
.

 

[Mainia]

Doesn't matter, it is a GL-5 and the application is for:

• Recommended for API GL-5, GL-6, MT-1, MIL-L-2105E and SAE J2360
• Contains extreme pressure additives like our 75W90 GL-5 oil, but lacks friction modifiers to balance slipperiness
• Improved copper corrosion protection to prolong synchro life
• Helps with lock-up on weak limited-slip differentials-compatible with Red Line Limited Slip Friction Modifier for tuning slippage
• Also used with clutch-type LSDs in racing for maximum lock up

The MT-1 transmission specification is for a Heavy Duty OTR truck transmission and has steel components.

MTF's for automobiles and light truck transmissions do not use or need extreme pressure additives, they need Anti-Wear additives.

It appears it's made for a purpose. High load or high HP/TQ applications. Like a 500 to 800+ HP Subaru WRX or EVO with the same high HP/TQ. Porsche/Ferrari/Alfa Romero certs are on the NS series too I would assume for high load manual gearbox using the same cavity as the diff is.

I know when towing a 1,200 lbs boat in my Kona AWD (world car) where the max tow in Europe/Aus is 2,800 lbs. I get a "load" noise on the front diff if towing in FWD only. I hit AWD and it goes into a 95/5 split that a Rav4 also does and the front diff load noise goes away, as 2 diffs are sharing a load now. I too would benefit from the NS series with my Kona in the towing scenario. I have upped my fluid from the 70w-75 Gl-4 factory spec to a non CAFE 75W-85 GL-4 as suggested by a Redline R&D chemist that I got through to when Dave was on vacation. I never talked to him about the NS series.That is an option when I start putting 325+ ft TQ through it next year.

 

[MolaKule]

It appears it's made for a purpose....

Yes, these applications/purposes:

Doesn't matter, it is a GL-5 and the application is for:

• Recommended for API GL-5, GL-6, MT-1, MIL-L-2105E and SAE J2360
• Contains extreme pressure additives like our 75W90 GL-5 oil, but lacks friction modifiers to balance slipperiness
• Improved copper corrosion protection to prolong synchro life
• Helps with lock-up on weak limited-slip differentials-compatible with Red Line Limited Slip Friction Modifier for tuning slippage
• Also used with clutch-type LSDs in racing for maximum lock up

The MT-1 transmission specification is for a Heavy Duty OTR truck transmission and has steel components.

MTF's for automobiles and light truck transmissions do not use or need extreme pressure additives, they need Anti-Wear additives.

I have upped my fluid from the 70w-75 Gl-4 factory spec to a non CAFE 75W-85 GL-4 as suggested by a Redline R&D chemist that I got through to when Dave was on vacation. I never talked to him about the NS series.

I have no idea of the exact conversation you had and without a transcription we will never know the details so that is just fluff.

If you are so enamored with the NS stuff why didn't you speak to the chemist about the NS series when you had the opportunity???