GL-5 in place of GL-4

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Can I use Pennzoil GL-5 80W-90 gear oil in a Kubota tractor's front axle? Kubota's website says to use a GL-4 gear oil, but the owner's manual just says 80W-90 gear lube, no mention of GL-4, GL-5. Would there be any issues using a GL-5 gear lube?

Thanks,
 
Diffs don't usually have yellow metals in them, which is the real danger of using GL-5 (they supposedly damage yellow metals).

If in doubt, I'd call Kubota and ask.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
If they are specifiying an 80W90 diffy oil it usually means a GL5 rated gear lube.

Didn't you indicate years ago that GL-4 was an obsolete spec and that GL-5 will not attack yellow metals??

Any change in that word??
 
Wait. GL-5 does not supercede GL-4, the only diff is coefficient of friction for syncro engagment. Also, GL-5 does not corrode brass and bronze. Modern GL-5 also has an MT-1 spec, meaning ok for yellow metals. Often GL-5 works fine w/syncros, although it is a 'gear oil'. GL-4 is for trans.

I keep ckicking on these threads to be shure people are getting the right info and they and not yet.

Mobil 1 Gear Oil has some info on their web site.
 
OK that does make sense. But what (I'm sure it was Mola)was indicated was that the equipment used in testing and certifying GL-4 was no longer used. . Again..if it wasn't Molakule it was someone who was in a position to know. What you are saying though makes perfect sense.

Thanks. Unfortunately not all posters (including me) scan some of these subforums.
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
GL-5 does not corrode brass and bronze. Modern GL-5 also has an MT-1 spec, meaning ok for yellow metals.


About three years ago a Mobil customer service guy said that corrosion of yellow metal may occur above a certain temperature (which was higher than transmissions normally see).
 
Quote:
Didn't you indicate years ago that GL-4 was an obsolete spec and that GL-5 will not attack yellow metals??


I assumed from the question the reference was to a differential fluid for a tractor.

Indeed GL4 is an obsolete specification. Most modern GL5 diffy fluids contain buffers and metal deactivators which do not let the sulfur attack copper alloys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_copper_alloys

A GL4 spec is taken to mean a gear lube with about 40% of the EP additive of a GL5. The GL4 spec has nothing to do with friction modifiers for Manual Transmissions.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Indeed GL4 is an obsolete specification.


Mola, what spec fluid would you put in the transmission of a 13 year old car that per the manaul required GL-4 fluid?
 
Found this at http://www.ratwell.com/technical/GearOil.html

"Many people have put in a call to an oil manufacturer to ask them about the suitability of their GL-5 product for VW transaxles and received an inconclusive response. They may be told it's ok without any details to back it up. Likewise, they may have heard it's ok to use but the manufacturer won't confirm this because they haven't tested and proved it (cost and liability). The tech on the phone may not even know any better and since you are trying to match a modern oil formula to a 30 year old transmission, chances of getting an accurate confirmation is slim especially if his computer system comes up blank concerning your vehicle type.

To obtain GL-5 certification, the manufacturer does not have to pass the ASTM D-130 test. This is the main reason why you should avoid GL-5. So, if you put in a call to a manufacturer about their GL-5, that test result is what you want to verify.

Some people will claim that using GL-5 in a GL-4 spec transmission doesn't apply when the GL-5 is synthetic. This depends on the oil and cannot be generalized. However, it should be noted that many GL-5 synthetic gear oils do not use sulpher in their EP additive package and can pass ASTM D-130.

Even if the manuacturer states the gear lube is "non-corrosive", its viscosity index may be too slippery for the VW style synchros. This means that while the syncros won't corrode, the oil is not designed to grab the hub the way GL-4 does and the transmission will wear out another way.

As a final caution, some GL-5 formulas have been known to permanently coat the synchros in a VW manual transmission reducing its life by 50%.


So choosing a gear oil is both a matter of chemical and mechanical compatibility. In hindsight that seems obvious but the heat of the debate tends to cloud the issue."


I think this really gets to some of the heart of the issue. Looks like a CYA issue through and through..both by the oil manufacture and the car manufacturer. . Mobil 1 really just doesn't want to tread into an area where an obsolete spec (GL-4) has been used blindly by manufactures for the last 50 years.

Also interesting that Subaru recommends GL-5 for its Manual Transmission, Front differential, and rear differential. Why is a Subaru Manual Transmission is able to function with GL-5 and Nissan can't?? I know when I asked Mobil 1 (not the Phone Techs but the "Real Engineers"..I had contacts in my working days)..I got the basic "Wink and a Smile" over the phone about the differences in requirements) ) Interesting.

My conclusion: In the unlikely event that I buy a manual vehicle other than Subaru, I won't hesitate to use GL-5
 
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Quote:
Mola, what spec fluid would you put in the transmission of a 13 year old car that per the manaul required GL-4 fluid?



For a Manual Transmission, I would use the Redline or Amsoil mtl's depending on the viscosity required.
 
Originally Posted By: Al
Found this at http://www.ratwell.com/technical/GearOil.html

Even if the manuacturer states the gear lube is "non-corrosive", its viscosity index may be too slippery for the VW style synchros.


A slippery VI. That's a new one on me.
crackmeup2.gif
 
Mr. Atwell, the author, as most, are behind the curve when discussing the formulation and performance of modern GL-4 and GL-5 gear oils and is perpetuating old myths. He is as many out there, are very ignorant about friction modfiers in manual transmissons.

Quote:
GL-4 differs from GL-5 by the amount these chemicals are mixed into the oil (1/2 to much less in GL-4). Since the same additives are present in GL-4, they will eat the synchros as well but at a point in time that is beyond the expected service life of the gear stack.

To get the GL-4 rating, the oil has to pass the ASTM D-130 test. This test determines how reactive the sulpher is against a polished copper strip. The strip is also subjected to heating to simulate the running conditions in the gear box.


I just love to see gear lubes "EATING" away at copper alloys like termites eating away at wood.
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The older lubes would stain copper alloys and maybe "pit" them, but I have yet to see them eating anything.
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Another correction to the above paper is that all gear lubes undergo the ASTM D-140 test in order to determine staining and corrosion potential. 1B or 1A are good ratings.

Additives: The current metal deactivators and buffering chemicals prevent this in GL-5 and/or GL-4 gear lubes within the lubes service life.

Quote:
As a final caution, some GL-5 formulas have been known to permanently coat the synchros in a VW manual transmission reducing its life by 50%.


Coat them with what?
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Mola, what spec fluid would you put in the transmission of a 13 year old car that per the manaul required GL-4 fluid?



For a Manual Transmission, I would use the Redline or Amsoil mtl's depending on the viscosity required.


So you would not use a GL-5 lube after all? I have been using RL MT-90 GL-4 for 6 years.
 
My position is: For synchromesh transmissions, I would use a manual-transmisson-specific gearlube rated for GL-4 protection in which the D-140 rating was preferably 1A.

For a heavy duty truck or semi transmission, I would use a
GL-5/MT-1 rated lube and let er rip.

Now some HD transmissions will specify 10 or 30 or 50 weight PowerShift-type fluids so use those.


Quote:
Synchromesh Manual Transmission lubes we're developed specifically for manual transmissions and transaxles, and not for differentials or industrial gear boxes.

A synchromesh fluid usually refers to a specialized fluid that contains special friction modification additives for transmissions that use mechanical synchronizer assemblies; those synchronizer assemblies may be made of carbon fiber composites, sintered metal, brass/bronze, or steel-steel materials.

Most Differential and Manual Transmission oils contain sulfur-phosphorous EP packages. GL4-rated oils usually contain about 40% to 60% of the amount of Differential lubricant EP’s. Therefore, both MT and Differential lubes contain the same EP additives, just in different strengths or additive ratios.

GL4 does NOT refer to any specific viscosity, but it refers to a level of AW/EP protection for the gearing and bearings in a transmission, so GL4 has come to infer a gear lube with the above percentages of EP additive. The exception of course is ATF fluid used in some of the newer transmissions.

Both differential and manual transmission fluids use chemical compounds that subdue or inhibit the corrosive effects of sulfur and phosphorous such as calcium, magnesium, boron, potassium or other basic compounds. Emulsifiers, corrosion and rust inhibitors also are included to do their respective jobs.

Differential lubes use friction modifiers to reduce mechanical and fluid friction and add some anti-shudder friction modifier for limited slip; both very different chemical compounds.

Manual Transmission fluids use a different friction modifier specifically designed for synchro engagement, a modifier that does NOT contain the same chemical compounds as do differential lubes.

Ever since the synchromesh-type fluids appeared on the scene (such as the GM Synchromesh fluid), drivers have had better shifting due to better synchro engagement, attributed to the specialized friction modifier used in these lubes. This specialized friction modifier is better for metallic and composite synchros in terms of shifting and life.

You also have to consider the viscosity of the fluid that the transmission was designed for. The spectrum now ranges from ATF to 75W90 viscosities and therefore a synchromesh GL4 Manual Transmission Lubricant (MTL) can be any viscosity from 7.0 cSt (ATF equivalent viscosity) to a 75W90 type viscosity of approx. 14.5 cSt, and contains special friction modification additives for synchronizer assembly engagement.

Current MTL GL4 viscosities are:

1. ATF viscosity Series; 6.5 to 8.5 cSt (Equivalent ATF viscosity; Note: ATF additive package is weak compared to most GL4's)

2. Synchromesh viscosity Series; 9.3 - 9.6 cSt (such as Amsoils MTF, Texaco's MTL, Pennzoil's Synchromesh, GM and Chrysler's Synchromesh)

3. 75W85 viscosity Series; 9.8 to 11.5 cSt ( Redline's MTL, RP's Synchromax LT, Nissan's MTL, Honda MTL, Castrol Syntorq LT)

4. 75W90 viscosity Series; 12.8 to 14.5 cSt (Amsoil's MTG, Redline's MT-90).

A differential lube may not kill your manual transmission in your light truck or car, but it is not the optimum lube for it. A differential 75W90 (GL5) lubricant usually has a higher viscosity than does an mtl in the same advertised weight.

Many if not most GL5 fluids rated for differentials may also be rated as MT-1. Some manufacturers, such as Amsoil®, state the following:

“Recommended for use in differentials, manual transmissions and other gear applications requiring any of the following specifications: API GL-5, MT-1, MIL-PRF-2105E, Dana SHAES 234 (Formerly Eaton PS-037), Mack GO-J, or the differential (hypoid) gear oil specifications from all domestic and foreign manufacturers such as GM, Ford and Daimler Chrysler. Can also be used in axles where an API GL-4 lubricant is recommended.”

This MT-1 rating refers to use in heavy duty truck transmissions, and as such, does NOT necessarily mean that this fluid will function properly in a light truck or car synchromesh transmission.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
My position is: For synchromesh transmissions, I would use a manual-transmisson-specific gearlube rated for GL-4 protection in which the D-140 rating was preferably 1A.

I wonder why it is that Subaru recommends GL-5 for their manual transmission and Nissan recommends GL-4. Presumably both transmissions are very similar design/composition and presumably both companies are capable of recommending the correct lube for their transmissions.
 
I know guys I trust who have used M1 gear oil in Audi manual trans and they say it's fine. It calls for GL-4.
 
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