Germany's "Green Energy" folly

[OVERKILL]

German 'Energy Revolution' Depends on Nuclear Imports

German Solar Firms Eclipsed by Chinese Rivals

Quote:
Germany's decision to phase out its nuclear power plants by 2022 has rapidly transformed it from power exporter to importer. Despite Berlin's pledge to move away from nuclear, the country is now merely buying atomic energy from neighbors like the Czech Republic and France.


Quote:

Green energy used to be Germany's great hope for its economic future. But now the German solar industry is in trouble amid huge losses, job cuts and the threat of bankruptcies. Chinese firms are gaining an ever greater share of the German market -- and are benefiting from German subsidies for renewable energy.

 

[CivicFan]

Quote:
The problem is that they became lethargic as a result. Today German manufacturers are not nearly as innovative as their dynamic image would suggest. The industry invests only 2 to 3 percent of its revenues in research and development, a much lower percentage than in Germany's famous machine-building sector, for example.


Major faux-pas to not invest in R&D and stay ahead of the competitors.

 

[Nick R]

And now we start seeing all the reactionary anti-nuke people starting to have an affect. NEWS FLASH, Nuclear power is safe if it's done right. Fukushima, nobody expected the extent of what happened there.

New Reactors (not old ones) are nearly meltdown-proof. Most Reactors out there were built in the 70s and 80s. They are old designs, that work great sure, but the new ones from GE, Toshiba, and Westinghouse, are all safe and much more efficient.

People need to stop fearing nuclear power, and start making the effort to learn about it. Radiation? My dad has been working with nuclear reactors for the past 20 years in the US Navy. He operates the reactors, and has been in the Reactor compartment (when shutdown, obviously) numerous times. And no adverse effects.

Let's be reasonable people, Solar and Wind will NEVER be able to supply all our energy needs. It just isn't physically, or monetarily possible. Plus, they are both dependent on HAVING wind, and sun everyday.

Nuclear power is safe when done right, provides much more power than either of th e other two, and cheaper in the long run than acres and acres and acres of solar panels.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Quote:
The problem is that they became lethargic as a result. Today German manufacturers are not nearly as innovative as their dynamic image would suggest. The industry invests only 2 to 3 percent of its revenues in research and development, a much lower percentage than in Germany's famous machine-building sector, for example.


Major faux-pas to not invest in R&D and stay ahead of the competitors.


Indeed, and now the subsidies setup to help the Green Energy sector grow in Germany are benefiting the Chinese firms, selling their product at 1/3rd the price.

I'm surprised nobody saw that one coming.....

 

[LS2JSTS]

I still cant believe that the Germans reacted so quickly and negatively to the Japanese Tsunami...Abandoning their nuclear program over fears that are IMO unfounded.

The Chinese are investing in nuclear plants/technology at an alarming rate...IMO we should all be doing the same.
From what I've read these new class of thorium reactors could prove pretty safe.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Nick R
And now we start seeing all the reactionary anti-nuke people starting to have an affect. NEWS FLASH, Nuclear power is safe if it's done right. Fukushima, nobody expected the extent of what happened there.

New Reactors (not old ones) are nearly meltdown-proof. Most Reactors out there were built in the 70s and 80s. They are old designs, that work great sure, but the new ones from GE, Toshiba, and Westinghouse, are all safe and much more efficient.

People need to stop fearing nuclear power, and start making the effort to learn about it. Radiation? My dad has been working with nuclear reactors for the past 20 years in the US Navy. He operates the reactors, and has been in the Reactor compartment (when shutdown, obviously) numerous times. And no adverse effects.

Let's be reasonable people, Solar and Wind will NEVER be able to supply all our energy needs. It just isn't physically, or monetarily possible. Plus, they are both dependent on HAVING wind, and sun everyday.

Nuclear power is safe when done right, provides much more power than either of th e other two, and cheaper in the long run than acres and acres and acres of solar panels.



Wait, what, Nick, are you saying the billions upon BILLIONS of subsidies spent on solar that provides a whopping 2% of Germany's power wasn't a wise move?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
I still cant believe that the Germans reacted so quickly and negatively to the Japanese Tsunami...Abandoning their nuclear program over fears that are IMO unfounded.

The Chinese are investing in nuclear plants/technology at an alarming rate...IMO we should all be doing the same.
From what I've read these new class of thorium reactors could prove pretty safe.


The Chinese are investing in everything. Hoping to displace everybody else. Unfortunately, they seem to be succeeding.

 

[IndyIan]

Also I think China's willingness and ability to subsidize key industries directly to compete and then dominate in the world market.
China saw an opportunity in solar and wind, and their government made sure their products are better and cheaper. Maybe in a few years it will be cars? I think realistically our freeish market industries can't compete with focused effort from the Chinese Communist Party. They can stack the cards perfectly for their companies for long term domination, but our companies have 4 year politicians and day traders in the stock market to worry about...
Maybe in the very long term the Chinese strategy will fail but its going pretty good now for a couple decades.

As for the nuclear article, I think once they get their water storage systems up and running I don't think they will be importing as much nuclear energy, if any. Probably most Germans are willing to pay 10% or whatever more for electricity to remove the risk of a nuclear accident. I have to admire their efforts in trying to make an evironmental utopia while still being a huge manufacturing exporter. Hope it works for them.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

The Chinese are investing in everything. Hoping to displace everybody else. Unfortunately, they seem to be succeeding.

They are building about 2 coal plants a week as well as other new sources of energy, but not "green energy" for their own use. They are selling that to countries stupid enough to mandate these things.

http://bigpeace.com/ier/2011/10/04/is-chinas-green-energy-a-myth/

Spain went full bore into the green energy scam trying to "invest in the future" and be the "first". The result? A collapsed economy and 20% unemployment.

These programs are a boondoggle.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
The Chinese are investing in everything. Hoping to displace everybody else. Unfortunately, they seem to be succeeding.


That's partly true.

They forecast the amount of energy they need if they were to live like the rest of the world and got scared, and since they are full of cash, they went on a buying spree just in case. What they are interested in the most is not the products, but the know how of making them.

They are very, very tight on electricity and the supply route between their coal mines and power plants. They need to make sure whatever potential outcome they have to be there instead of being held hostage by foreign technologies.

They have no choice but to build nuclear plants, going as far as buying the right (technology transfer) to build it themselves straight from GE and Westinghouse.

Blowing a couple billions subsidizing solar panel just in case it works? No problem. Blowing them away but it doesn't work? No problem either, just an insurance policy.

 

[ctrcbob]

Nick R,

I see you are from Saratoga. Is the Navy (training) Reactor still located there?

(No, that was not my specialty, but I visit Lake George, Saratoga and Balston Spa often).

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

German Solar Firms Eclipsed by Chinese Rivals

Quote:
Now, of all times, the green industries of the future are faltering. The goal of developing a new leading industry with global aspirations has become a distant hope. German players play only a secondary role in global markets and are steadily losing market share -- despite being heavily subsidized. Or maybe the industry is ailing precisely because of the billions in government aid.

Hardly any other industrial sector has received such generous political support as the producers of green electricity, especially the solar industry. Germany's Renewable Energy Sources Act (EEG), introduced 11 years ago, gave the industry a phenomenal boost. Nevertheless, the boom comes at a high price.

The EEG guarantees each provider a fixed price for the electricity it feeds into the grid (the so-called feed-in tariff) -- paid for by consumers. The Rhenish-Westphalian Institute for Economic Research (RWI) calculates that, up until the end of 2010, electricity consumers paid roughly €81.5 billion for the expansion of photovoltaic technology alone. This "tsunami of costs" will only continue to grow, says the RWI.

Yet again, government created a bubble by pumping a ton of money into something the market didn't want, and it has now burst.

And people actually want us to go down the subsidy path? Incredible.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: ctrcbob
Nick R,

I see you are from Saratoga. Is the Navy (training) Reactor still located there?

(No, that was not my specialty, but I visit Lake George, Saratoga and Balston Spa often).


Yep. My dad works there. They still have MARF (the old S7G unit) and the S8G plant out at Knolls. Both were overhauled a few years back. Still in operation. My dad is a Chief (E7) out at the site. About to go back to sea duty on a sub though.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Also I think China's willingness and ability to subsidize key industries directly to compete and then dominate in the world market.
China saw an opportunity in solar and wind, and their government made sure their products are better and cheaper. Maybe in a few years it will be cars? I think realistically our freeish market industries can't compete with focused effort from the Chinese Communist Party. They can stack the cards perfectly for their companies for long term domination, but our companies have 4 year politicians and day traders in the stock market to worry about...
Maybe in the very long term the Chinese strategy will fail but its going pretty good now for a couple decades.

As for the nuclear article, I think once they get their water storage systems up and running I don't think they will be importing as much nuclear energy, if any. Probably most Germans are willing to pay 10% or whatever more for electricity to remove the risk of a nuclear accident. I have to admire their efforts in trying to make an evironmental utopia while still being a huge manufacturing exporter. Hope it works for them.

The problem is, even though their goal is to shut down all their nuclear plants, they aren't anywhere NEAR being "green". They still have their own Nuclear plants in operation covering the massive rift between green energy and energy they are buying from other countries.... Which is produced either with nuke or fossil fuel.

The amount of energy production they have to make up is mind boggling, when you look at the numbers. I think it is a huge mistake, particularly in this economy.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Nick R
And now we start seeing all the reactionary anti-nuke people starting to have an affect. NEWS FLASH, Nuclear power is safe if it's done right. Fukushima, nobody expected the extent of what happened there.

Didn't Fukushima actually survive the earthquake, even though it was MUCH more powerful than the most powerful quake that the reactor was designed to survive? As I understand, everything would have been fine if the backup generators hadn't been washed away by the tsunami.

 

[PandaBear]

But it was washed away and it did melt down. So the end result is radiation leak and a scrapped plant, regardless.

 

[d00df00d]

Fair point.

 

[Kestas]

Agreed. These horrible scenarios happen because of an unlikely combination of events, no matter how "bullet proof" somebody claims their design is... who'd've thought you'd have the three stooges running Chernobyl?... who'd've thought the gauges would get stuck at TMI?... who'd've guessed a tsumani would take out the backup systems at Fukushima.

I'm not antinuclear, but we have to accept that horrible things do indeed happen. Three times already in my lifetime.

 

[LS2JSTS]

I know hind sight is twenty-twenty, but it looks like an obvious design flaw to build the back up generators well below grade on a sea level site that is at a known risk for tsunami type events. It seems that flooding of those redundant systems would have been better thought out...but maybe there are other concerns I'm not familiar with...like security or something.

 

[PF52]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
I still cant believe that the Germans reacted so quickly and negatively to the Japanese Tsunami...Abandoning their nuclear program over fears that are IMO unfounded.


Their plan sounds like what would happen here in Illinois, if we shut down our nuclear plants and instead bought power from nuclear plants in Iowa. There's no advantage, safety, economic or otherwise. Dumb.