OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Man, that NEM2, you can hear the "bow chicka-wow-wow" music fading in as the ratebase starts to bend over.
Gasoline price vs electricity price
- Thread starter Snagglefoot
- Start date
Too bad I missed NEM1; you snooze you lose, as they say.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I would have to step-up from the Ron Jeremy gif for that one and not sure if my membership could survive that one, lol
BC is talking about a low overnight rate as well. But there is going to be a higher price during peak hours during the day to compensate. EV owners are one group that will gain because they can schedule their charging time during off peak hours. Heat pump owners might gain a little too because the temperatures are lower at night and as we use our heat pumps primarily for heating and almost never for cooling. But most people will pay more for electricity.
In BC we (currently) pay no road tax for driving an EV and the insurance on our Tesla is quite reasonable. In this area we also have a mild climate so we don't use up a lot of charge on heating or cooling. So with low electrical rates, very high gasoline prices, no road tax and reasonable insurance there are many financial incentives to drive an EV. And that's before considering how much fun they are to drive.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yes, you don't get the temperatures the rest of Canada gets, which works in your favour. I have a heat pump, but it runs for cooling during the day, and, since I no longer have an EV, that aspect of it doesn't appeal to me at this time. I do think that for those that have one, it's a good program.
Regarding heat pumps running at night, we use our automatic thermostat such that the set temp drops from 70 F at 9:00 PM and coasts down towards 64 F overnight. At 4:00 in the morning the heat pump comes on the takes the temp back up to 70 F by 6:00 A.M. and then it touches up the temp during the day. It it’s sunny outside, it doesn’t run much at all. These are at outside temps near freezing.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yeah, I don't have that much of a swing, my "home" temp is 20.5C and my "sleep" and "away" temp is 19C.
We have a heat pump and don't adjust our temperatures through the day. Living areas 20C (21C if it's really cold outside), master bedroom 19C. Cold walls make you feel cold thus the higher temp if it's "really cold" outside. "Really cold" around here is -10C.
Your body actually radiates heat to cold walls so you compensate with a higher air temperature.
We basically turn off the heat pump for many months a year and leave the windows open for much of the day. We're near the water so it cools off rapidly here at night. In fact you'd need a light sweater to be comfortable outside in the evenings in the warmest months. Our daughter lives only a couple of miles away and yet her place doesn't cool off at night like ours does.
Your body actually radiates heat to cold walls so you compensate with a higher air temperature.
We basically turn off the heat pump for many months a year and leave the windows open for much of the day. We're near the water so it cools off rapidly here at night. In fact you'd need a light sweater to be comfortable outside in the evenings in the warmest months. Our daughter lives only a couple of miles away and yet her place doesn't cool off at night like ours does.
My truck averages 16mpg and I do ~200 miles a week. An F-150 Lightning averages 1.9 miles/kwh per Motortrend. Mid grade is running ~3.89/gallon, my electricity costs ~17c/kwh. To run the F-150 Lightning would cost me about $20/week, gas costs $50.
3.89/0.17=22.88
3.89/0.17=22.88
and it's cheaper right now than it has been for a while. It's been around $2.20/liter in Victoria for quite a while but is now down to the more "reasonable" $1.80.
Which is interesting because with Victoria being on Vancouver island, there is no gasoline production on the island and no pipelines or bridges between the mainland and the island. All gasoline is shipped by barges and perhaps tank truck ( not sure) on ferries.
Due to lack of home charging, it’s there but nobody has the code to use it, I have used street chargers and compared the cost when just driving the car in Battery Control mode till it is fully charged and swallowing the increased fuel consumption.
Roughly 4 hours on a public charger was costing just over £10, which gave 18/20 miles of EV range on the GOM, in reality it was closer to 15mins of actual range.
But over a week (1000miles or so) the actual fuel economy was nearly identical and the cost to fuel nearly identical so I stopped bothering to charge.
And just charged the car using Battery Control.
I still charge on street chargers as in London it’s cheaper to park and charge than it is to just pay for parking.
I am still considering buying a BMW i7 next year, but not 100% convinced yet, so may opt for the 750e PHEV which uses the same underpinnings as my 745Le but with a slightly larger battery.
If Mercedes S580e prices start to soften with discounts available I will get one of those
It's going to be tough to figure out because the cost of energy is largely a reflection of the amount of tax applied and changes in seasonal demand. This is on top of the energy mix employed by the homeowner (All electric or electric with NatGas). Basically the EV vs ICE could be at cost parity or one could be cheaper than the other depending on the time of year (Homeowners with NatGas use less electricity in the winter). The climate and household energy mix are going to be just as important as taxes/junk fees.
Also when comparing ICE vs EV one shouldn't fall into the trap of confirmation bias by comparing vehicles with vastly different performance metrics in order to make a point one way or another. (Ex, Toyota Corolla vs Tesla Model 3).
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Google tells me the "average" EV goes 5 km on 1 kWh.
Based on the prices I cited earlier (C$0.10/kWh and C$1.50 litre of gasoline), 100 km in an "average" EV would cost C$2.00 in fuel.
Our '07 Dodge Grand Caravan averages about 15 l/100 km, so my fuel cost runs about C$22.50 (C$30.00 in town in the winter, C$15.00 on the highway in the summer.)
So fuel savings with an EV would average C$20.50/100 km.
We're driving about 18,000 km a year.
18,000 km x C$2.00/100 km = 180 x 2 = C$360 annual fuel cost for an EV.
18,000 km x C$22.50/100 km = 180 x 22.5 = C$4050 annual fuel cost for our van.
So, the annual fuel savings for us (in the land of expensive gasoline and cheap electricity) would be C$3690.
However ...
- The electricity prices are based on charging at home. The gap would close for trips.
- Increased demand might drive up electricity costs.
- The capital cost of an EV to replace the van (seat 7, carry 4x8 sheets of plywood and drywall) would be very high, if such a vehicle even exists.
- An EV big enough to replace the van would likely use far more electricity than average.
- Cold weather saps an EV's range. We have a lot of that here.
- Insurance on an EV would be at least C$1000 higher/year, likely more.
And therefore it might make more sense for us to run a small EV as a 2nd vehicle, which would suffice for about half our driving - or perhaps go to one vehicle, a PHEV van that would offer the same utility we enjoy now but save a lot of money presently spent on fuel.
Regardless, the carbon tax on fuel will only increase, making the fuel-to-electricity ratio even higher. We're close to the tipping point here.
Based on the prices I cited earlier (C$0.10/kWh and C$1.50 litre of gasoline), 100 km in an "average" EV would cost C$2.00 in fuel.
Our '07 Dodge Grand Caravan averages about 15 l/100 km, so my fuel cost runs about C$22.50 (C$30.00 in town in the winter, C$15.00 on the highway in the summer.)
So fuel savings with an EV would average C$20.50/100 km.
We're driving about 18,000 km a year.
18,000 km x C$2.00/100 km = 180 x 2 = C$360 annual fuel cost for an EV.
18,000 km x C$22.50/100 km = 180 x 22.5 = C$4050 annual fuel cost for our van.
So, the annual fuel savings for us (in the land of expensive gasoline and cheap electricity) would be C$3690.
However ...
- The electricity prices are based on charging at home. The gap would close for trips.
- Increased demand might drive up electricity costs.
- The capital cost of an EV to replace the van (seat 7, carry 4x8 sheets of plywood and drywall) would be very high, if such a vehicle even exists.
- An EV big enough to replace the van would likely use far more electricity than average.
- Cold weather saps an EV's range. We have a lot of that here.
- Insurance on an EV would be at least C$1000 higher/year, likely more.
And therefore it might make more sense for us to run a small EV as a 2nd vehicle, which would suffice for about half our driving - or perhaps go to one vehicle, a PHEV van that would offer the same utility we enjoy now but save a lot of money presently spent on fuel.
Regardless, the carbon tax on fuel will only increase, making the fuel-to-electricity ratio even higher. We're close to the tipping point here.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
That's the boat we found ourselves in and could never make a decision, so we just didn't do anything. I loved the BMW i4 M50, my wife didn't. She liked the iX M50, I didn't (and, it was insanely expensive). We both liked the X5 xDrive45e PHEV, but weren't sure on going PHEV vs BEV.
Good analysis. EVs make the most sense when the distances traveled are shorter, when most charging can be done at home, where fuel prices are high, where electricity isn't too expensive and the climate is relatively mild. That pretty much defines the west coast of Canada and to a smaller extent the east coast. Your suggestion of an EV for everyday driving and an ICE for hauling (and for trips) works too.
There are capital costs to buy an EV and install a level 2 home charging system but everyone replaces a vehicle from time to time and that's when an EV should be seriously considered. If my BMW hadn't gotten old I'd probably still be driving it instead of the Tesla.
Having at least one EV in a multi vehicle family for local use and commuting makes a lot of sense. We almost never drive our Honda any more in spite of it being a very good vehicle. The Tesla is just so convenient.
So if (and that is a big if) all things stayed the same both electric and gas. I would think it is cheaper to have gas.
The difference in the cost of fuel between the two is $1560 a year more for gas but the cost of the EV is far higher and never make up the difference. (more or less)
Some might say gas is more maintenance but it isnt really and you can expect the insurance on the Ford Lighting to be higher so throw some of that also to the cost of gasoline variations/possible increases.
Edit: I just realized besides the higher cost of the EV, the higher cost of the insurance for the EV might eat up any possible savings in fuel and at the least will eat up a good chunk of any savings.
It is wise to do requisite research especially before a major purchase.
The #1 reason people go back to ICE from EV is charging issues. Insurance can be a biggie and not just for EVs. Annual registration can be higher; mine is.
So yes, look at total cost of ownership before any major purchase.
An article in today's Globe and Mail has the author complaining about paying $0.62 Cdn ($0.45 US) per KWhr at an EV charger network in Ontario. That price seems extraordinarily high but allegedly reflects the cost of the electricity, building and maintaining a charging network plus profit. He also reports his overnight rate for electricity in Ontario as $0.087 ($0.07 US) not including delivery and taxes.
And that folks is why you need to be able to charge at home.
And that folks is why you need to be able to charge at home.
so at a 30 dollar a week saving, how long would the price difference and operating cost equalize between a gasoline F150 and a EV F150 ?
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