Gas Water Heaters - Need Advice

[barlowc]

Who knows about gas water heaters?

I suspect that our 15+ year old Bradford White 40-gallon water heater is nearing the end of its useful life. I’ve noticed that the capacity isn’t much and is pretty much zapped after I run a bath for the kids.

I've read that a good approach is to find a good, standard tank with a 6-year warranty at a reasonable price. They suggest that paying the extra $150-200 for a tank with a 12-year warranty is just a waste of money.

However, when talking with the "expert" at Home Depot yesterday, he said that the premium paid for a tank with a 12-year warranty is money well spent. He said that the 12-year tanks have significantly more insulation which results in 2 things:

1) Lower energy costs which will recoup the premium paid multiple times over the life of the tank.

2) A longer lasting tank because it doesn't have to fire up nearly as often to keep the water warm.

Home Depot carries GE tanks made by Rheem. Lowes carries Whirlpool tanks made by American Water Heater. (From what I understand, these two manufacturers cover a significant portion of the market.) I also know someone that can install a Lochinvar tank.

 

[Quest]

2 things you need to do:

(a ) flush out your sediment from the lower drainage tap and see if there's lots of them, and the colour of it (does it look dark red or rusty?)

(b ) give a visual inspection overall to the tank body. If it seems to show some kind of seepage somewhere along the inner tank wall or the insulation material (wet),

If a or b or both are true, you need to replace your tank.


Tanks are typically categorised in the following construction manner:

6-yr tank: standard gauge tank metal thickness, 1 single anode rod

9 yr tank: standard gauge tank metal thickness, 1 and a 1/2 anode rodes.

12 yr tank: at least 1.5 times the standard gauge tank metal thickness, 1 double-thickness anode rod (compared to the standard 6yr rod)

Also: insulation on a 12 yr tank are typically thicker than that of 6 or 9 yr tanks.

recently, my A.O.Smith tank (6yr, bursted in 4.5yrs and no warranty (we just took on this tank while we purchase the house) leaked. After much shopping and price comparision, I decided to go with Home Depot's 12yr GE by Rheem. They offer a tank-for-life deal meaning that this tank will be our last to buy, and when it goes, they will come and replace it with a similar tank parts+labour included.

others that I shopped including Sears(kenmore), etc. didn't have such policy: past the 1st year warranty (P&L), all the remaining balance of warranty: I have to cough up the labour charge part, which can be hideously expensive in our area.

Take care.

Q.

 

[Pop_Rivit]

Have you considered tankless? Depending on your circumstances and prices you may find that an on-demand system is less expensive over its lifespan.

Another option is a hybrid system. We replaced our 15 year old propane fired water heater 3 years ago (November) with a GE Geospring hybrid. With the cost of propane, it was more cost effective to purchase the hybrid, take the tax credits (which made it less expensive than a tankless), and switch to the electric hybrid system. We should start seeing payback somewhere around 4.5 to 5 years after installing the system. I find it interesting that it seems like it hardly ever runs-much less than our old conventional gas water heater did.

We have noted a significant drop in the propane usage, while we've observed very little increase in electrical usage with the new water heater. I also like the idea of not having a standing pilot light continuously using fuel.

 

[barlowc]

Thanks Quest!

The overall tank body is in great shape. Standing there, it looks brand new on the exterior. There is no leaking of any kind.

RE: flushing out the sediment from the lower drainage tap, is there anything special that I need to know about in doing that? Or do I just connect an old hose, open the valve slowing, and let it drain?

In doing so, what if there's not a lot of sediment and the water isn't dark red or rusty? Does that mean there may be an easy and inexpensive fix to keep it going a while longer?

 

[Quest]

just connect a hose (or in the case where a floor drain is closeby, direct the hose there) and just crack open the tap slowly.

I prefer to get a bucket to catch the water coming out from the tap for close inspection.

Also: provided that the tank is in very good shape and no/minimal rusty water coming out, provided that you are competent in DIYing: you might consider replacing the anode rod yourself (it's between 18~30bux a piece, shop online for pricing updates).

@pop_rivit: yes, we thought of installing a tankless water heater but the following issues/challenges have set us back (and go back to the traditional style natural gas hot water heater tank):

(1 ): hard water caused sediment forming inside the tank. in our area: typically, tankless water heater users would have to reverse-flush the system with weak acid (e.g. coolaid, lemon juice, weak citric acid, etc.) every 8~18 months, depending on the frequency of usage.

(2 ): initial (upfront) installation + tank cost is very high, even when compared to the HD deal I got (works out to 1.2K with tax and such), tankless would have cost an additional 1K more.

(3 ):selection. I know there's some other brands of tankless water heater out there but my preference would be "National" or "Rennai", but other than Rennai that I rarely came across here in NA in the past, National is pretty much a mystery to local vendors ("National" is the registered brand made by Matsushita Industries, the maker of Technics or Panasonic stuff...and yeah! they also makes kitchen cabinets (Jpn market only), hot water heater tanks of all sorts, kitchen propane gas range, etc.)

Q.

 

[Quest]

@pop_rivit:

Yeah, I know the pros and cons of conserving energy/making things as high of energy efficiency as possible. (I'm also a regular on boards such as EcoRenovator, etc.)

pros: you do save quite a bit of $$$ if you opt for more "modern" options such as hot element type of ignition (hot water tank, etc.) but you are also become vunlerable to hardware failures(more so than standing pilot lights type), more costly repairs and extended downtime due to challenges in obtaining proper repair parts. Also: electronic-based ignition systems tend to become flaky or intermittent as it sees years of service, making it a bit challenging to repair sometimes.

recently (about a month ago), my hydronic radiant floor heating boiler pilot light went out on a chilly midnite on a Saturday morning.Because of the heat mass (concrete) thermal retention properties, it wasn't until 8hrs down the road where I began to feel the chills (thermostat dropped down to 18.5C) and discovered that the pilot light was out. Re-lighting it didn't work and found out that the 7+yr old thermocouple was faulty. Because I'm critically aware of these type of settings and have spare new thermocouple, the repair only took me 15 mins and the system came back again. Total cost? 6 bux. (for the themalcouple)

On a different occasion: a hot element ignitor style Amana natural gas furnace on my wifey's colleague went out on a Friday nite. went there, took a better part of 1hr+ to sort out the fault (I'm not a furnace repair man, BTW), and determined that it's the ignitor's fault. Called numerous places and had to back-order the part for 3 days. Installation was a breeze but the end cost was 30bux...

Just a thought on the subject.

Q.

 

[spock1]

I just replaced my 16 year old gas hot water heater because it was hardly producing any hot water.
The bottom desintegrated when the plumber moved it around.
It may look good from the outside but could be severely corroded internaly.
I purchased a Rheem with a long term warranty-the new one should last at least as long as the old one.
So don't cheap out,go for the better Rheem.
BTW-It did cost me about one thousand bucks for the complete tank and installation.

 

[Virtuoso]

Our Rinnai R75LSi has been the best money we've put into our house thus far. But YMMV!

 

[SrDriver]

Check with your gas supplier. Here providing your tank is at least 7 years old they will give you a free water heater. Only cost being a plumber to replace it and put it in service.

Replaced ours a few years ago and it was an "Energy Star" water heater.

Will not hurt checking what they offer in your area.

 

[rjundi]

A local plumber will know the average life of a tank. Some tanks cannot make the entire warranty period while other far exceed it. The difference is your local water chemistry.

I would focus hard on energy cost/efficiency though. A $150 save upfront here can turn into $1000 cost in fuel.

 

[spock1]

Originally Posted By: Virtuoso
Our Rinnai R75LSi has been the best money we've put into our house thus far. But YMMV!

Do you feel that a tankless water heater is a better value than a regular one?
What are the advantages?More hot water?lower energy consumption?Reliability?Lower installation cost?Long life?

 

[bepperb]

I bought a 6 year 40 gallon natural gas GE from Home Depot and it is a good product. I believe that the 9 and 12 year just have a different anode rod but I don't know that for fact. HD had a sheet with the different efficiency ratings and I don't remember there being a big difference.

I wish I had gone tankless but that required a stainless chimney and would have turned a 350 dollar 2 hours and a beer job into a 2000 dollar weekend long drama. If I had it to do again I would have paid extra for the 50 gallon though.

I used a lowes 10% off "movers" coupon that HD happily matched and saved 35 bucks. Plan on replacing the shutoff above the inlet of the water heater as well. Best of luck. You might get some more time flushing it, but 15 years means you're on borrowed time IMO.

 

[2004tdigls]

tankless save at least 30% energy costs and generally last longer, they have been in use in Europe and Japan for decades because of the high cost of energy

http://www.bchydro.com/guides_tips/green...TanklessHeaters

a direct bolt in for your current tank

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/rheem-ecosense-tankless-water-heater-eco-180-dvn3/902393

 

[spock1]

Originally Posted By: 2004tdigls
tankless save at least 30% energy costs and generally last longer, they have been in use in Europe and Japan for decades because of the high cost of energy

http://www.bchydro.com/guides_tips/green...TanklessHeaters

a direct bolt in for your current tank

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/rheem-ecosense-tankless-water-heater-eco-180-dvn3/902393


Note that the draw currently required by electric on-demand heaters exceeds the Electric Tariff; so tankless electric systems cannot be used by BC Hydro customers until the technology improves.
Care to elaborate?

 

[Doog]

I have a gas Bradford White 75 gallon high recovery tank and it uses about $8 per month less gas than it's predecessor. It is now 7 years old. So, on average I have saved about $672 which is $50% of what I paid to have it installed. After logging this information, I now consider energy use as a major buying factor when picking any appliance.

 

[bepperb]

Originally Posted By: 2004tdigls
tankless save at least 30% energy costs and generally last longer, they have been in use in Europe and Japan for decades because of the high cost of energy

http://www.bchydro.com/guides_tips/green...TanklessHeaters

a direct bolt in for your current tank

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/rheem-ecosense-tankless-water-heater-eco-180-dvn3/902393


That "direct bolt in" uses a 5" concentric vent/chimney. After ripping out the existing 3" glavanized chimney and boring the hole out, new roof cap... etc it won't feel like "direct bolt in" that's for sure.

 

[2004tdigls]

natural gas tankless are approved, the electric are technically illegal, but i have a friend with one installed (shhh dont tell anyone, lol)

https://www.bchydro.com/youraccount/content/electric_tariff.jsp

electrics have a huge current demand and can cause problems with the grid during peak usage times

electrics are actually almost 100% efficient but the current electrical grid would not support every household using one

 

[Virtuoso]

Originally Posted By: spock1
Do you feel that a tankless water heater is a better value than a regular one?
What are the advantages?More hot water?lower energy consumption?Reliability?Lower installation cost?Long life?


I think a lot of it has to do with your personal situation. Installation costs can vary wildly.

Does your house already have a large enough gas line plumbed in?

Do you have to run venting through the roof/chimney, or can you just send it out of the wall next to the heater? Another option could be the outside-mounted units.

The installation cost for a tankless will be higher than a traditional tank unit, especially if you already have the venting/plumbing installed for a tank heater. Our plumber sent the vent straight out the foundation just above the Rinnai, so we didn't need to invest in a bunch of venting. And there are some extra valves and things that won't be needed with a traditional install.

As far as reliability I can't personally say. We've had ours for three years now and it's been 100% problem free. I haven't even had to do a vinegar flush yet.. but if we didn't have a water softener I'd bet we would have had to do a couple because our water is pretty hard. Our plumber says they don't have many problems with the other Rinnai units they've installed. Time will tell. Hopefully it lasts a long time!

Operational costs are pretty low - but we only had a tank heater in this house for about eight months before we replaced it; so I don't have a lot of summer gas-usage data to compare it to. Plus I think we use more hot water now that it's an unlimited supply. We had no problems emptying a new 50gal 9year Richmond before. But keep in mind, if you're willing to bite the cost of a tankless, there are tank units like the A.O. Smith Vertex that has very large burners and capacity while being energy efficient as well.

"Unlimited" hot water has been a huge plus for us! We can do showers for everyone right in a row..boom boom boom.. plus run the dishwasher and laundry at the same time, and not have to worry about the hot water running out in the middle of a shower.

Also, depending on where they have to put it, and plumb it into your existing lines, it may take longer to get hot water to your faucets. Really not a big deal, but another thing to get used to.

Total cost for us: $1,700. A traditional heater would have been maybe half that, I'm sure.

HTH

 

[2004tdigls]

actually it uses the same connection as the current venting system

ECO-180 DVN3 water heaters provides all the hot you'll ever need for 2 - 3 bathroom homes, 8.4 gallons per minute. RTG-20147 3"/5" Concentric Vent System with Integrated Condensate Collector. Connects to Metal Fab Inc., 3/5" Concentric Venting without an adapter

 

[Shannow]

Our gas tank died last year. Centre tube rusted out, no symptoms until it put the fire out and dumped on the floor.

Replaced with an outside mounted instant gas, which we are quite happy with.

It wastes a little more water on start-up, and being limited to 55C, is not the best for topping up a bath when you are in it, but on the whole it's good