We are adamant fans of the subcompact world though admittedly most of the country feels otherwise.
Hopefully there is still a place for them in the future.
Hopefully there is still a place for them in the future.
Future of subcompact cars?
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Originally Posted by NewEnglander
We are adamant fans of the subcompact world though admittedly most of the country feels otherwise.
Hopefully there is still a place for them in the future.
Don't fret.
Come the next recession, guaranteed to happen within the next couple of years or the next fuel price spike, guaranteed to happen at some unknown point, smaller cars will be all the rage and those makers not having any on offer will suffer.
We've been there before multiple times.
We are adamant fans of the subcompact world though admittedly most of the country feels otherwise.
Hopefully there is still a place for them in the future.
Don't fret.
Come the next recession, guaranteed to happen within the next couple of years or the next fuel price spike, guaranteed to happen at some unknown point, smaller cars will be all the rage and those makers not having any on offer will suffer.
We've been there before multiple times.
Originally Posted by MCompact
The largest car in my garage is 176.5 inches long; I don't plan to buy anything larger. I almost bought a Fiesta ST, but I couldn't find one with Recaros and without a hole in the roof.
The hole is nice unless you wanna wear a helmet. They are a bit too far back, that I will admit.
The largest car in my garage is 176.5 inches long; I don't plan to buy anything larger. I almost bought a Fiesta ST, but I couldn't find one with Recaros and without a hole in the roof.
The hole is nice unless you wanna wear a helmet. They are a bit too far back, that I will admit.
Originally Posted by NO2
Hybrids have made subcompacts irrelevant. When you can purchase a Camry or Accord that averages 47 mpg, why bother? In cities Lyft and Uber rule or you can get a Maven quick rental. A bicycle is better yet for short trips. Subcompacts only attribute is being cheap initially and easy to park, but they often cost more to insure than larger cars making gas savings less pronounced.
I think insuring a Fit or Yaris might be less than say, a F-150 or a Tesla. More popular cars are targets for theft(and trucks/SUVs aren't immune, the F-150/Silverado and the Tahoe/Suburban/Escalade have made the top 10 stolen vehicles list besides the CamCord), and yes, while size does rule in a collision, I've heard of stories where the SUV or truck driver actually came out worse than someone in a econobox.
In my town, if you're not riding a bike/bus or taking Lyft or Uber, there's lots of Fits and Minis around here. The Prius has made the Yaris irrelevant, get better mileage, more room AND safety in the former than the latter. In some aspect, the Fit is the modern day Civic before that became bigger, bloated and as luxurious as an Acura. Honda planned the 9th gen Civic to be the biggest, most luxurious Civic they've made until the Great Recession. The 10th gen cars went to that.
Hybrids have made subcompacts irrelevant. When you can purchase a Camry or Accord that averages 47 mpg, why bother? In cities Lyft and Uber rule or you can get a Maven quick rental. A bicycle is better yet for short trips. Subcompacts only attribute is being cheap initially and easy to park, but they often cost more to insure than larger cars making gas savings less pronounced.
I think insuring a Fit or Yaris might be less than say, a F-150 or a Tesla. More popular cars are targets for theft(and trucks/SUVs aren't immune, the F-150/Silverado and the Tahoe/Suburban/Escalade have made the top 10 stolen vehicles list besides the CamCord), and yes, while size does rule in a collision, I've heard of stories where the SUV or truck driver actually came out worse than someone in a econobox.
In my town, if you're not riding a bike/bus or taking Lyft or Uber, there's lots of Fits and Minis around here. The Prius has made the Yaris irrelevant, get better mileage, more room AND safety in the former than the latter. In some aspect, the Fit is the modern day Civic before that became bigger, bloated and as luxurious as an Acura. Honda planned the 9th gen Civic to be the biggest, most luxurious Civic they've made until the Great Recession. The 10th gen cars went to that.
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People used to buy sub compact for low purchase price, fuel economy, or for parking convenience.
The low interest rate and all the newer mandates (safety stuff like rear view camera, stability control, fuel economy stuff like direct injection, 6 speed auto, etc) makes the sub compact just as expensive to make, so why not spend a bit more to finance a larger vehicles (maybe not sub compact, but a hybrid or an CUV) that you can be more comfortable in for a few more years. Cars last longer these days anyways, right?
If you are looking for fuel economy, these days many people just go get a Prius instead. You will break even and then make it back anyways. Cab and Uber drivers know best. Even better if your work place has free charging, just lease an EV or buy a used one for commute.
Parking wise, gone are the day of "must have a car" and pay $400 a month for parking. Just online order your stuff (fewer store visits, fewer rides) or Uber to the store you want to go once a week. One of my coworker has no car, and rent a car once a month to go far on average, and walk to a grocery store once a week from his apartment.
Sub-compact may survive if they handle well and has a cult following. These days you don't need to go that small to get all the benefits.
The low interest rate and all the newer mandates (safety stuff like rear view camera, stability control, fuel economy stuff like direct injection, 6 speed auto, etc) makes the sub compact just as expensive to make, so why not spend a bit more to finance a larger vehicles (maybe not sub compact, but a hybrid or an CUV) that you can be more comfortable in for a few more years. Cars last longer these days anyways, right?
If you are looking for fuel economy, these days many people just go get a Prius instead. You will break even and then make it back anyways. Cab and Uber drivers know best. Even better if your work place has free charging, just lease an EV or buy a used one for commute.
Parking wise, gone are the day of "must have a car" and pay $400 a month for parking. Just online order your stuff (fewer store visits, fewer rides) or Uber to the store you want to go once a week. One of my coworker has no car, and rent a car once a month to go far on average, and walk to a grocery store once a week from his apartment.
Sub-compact may survive if they handle well and has a cult following. These days you don't need to go that small to get all the benefits.
When you think of it small cars probably are no more damaging to the environment than large gas guzzlers. All available fuel will be used in either case. But statistically . If you had X number of small cars on the road getting twice the gas mileage...you would have at any given time [have b]1/2 x X [/b] gas guzzlers on the road. Roads would last longer and traffic slowness would decrease raising efficiency. Gas usage would ultimately be the same.
I have said for many years that gas guzzlers are good for the environment...pretty straight forward. BTW I am somewhat of a Greenie but the way we guzzle energy in the U.S none of us can be called Greenies.
I have said for many years that gas guzzlers are good for the environment...pretty straight forward. BTW I am somewhat of a Greenie but the way we guzzle energy in the U.S none of us can be called Greenies.
I'm torn...I love the size, economy, and maneuverability of my Soul; but having driven a lot of big trucks now as part of my job, I can see the appeal of them - the commanding view of the road, the comfort they build into them, the feeling of 'invincibility' is hard to not be seduced by.
As long as gas stays cheap, there will continue to be more personal trucks on the road. Gas spikes are the main thing that fuel compact car sales; needing to save money on gas.
As long as gas stays cheap, there will continue to be more personal trucks on the road. Gas spikes are the main thing that fuel compact car sales; needing to save money on gas.
Originally Posted by Al
When you think of it small cars probably are no more damaging to the environment than large gas guzzlers. All available fuel will be used in either case. But statistically . If you had X number of small cars on the road getting twice the gas mileage...you would have at any given time [have b]1/2 x X [/b] gas guzzlers on the road. Roads would last longer and traffic slowness would decrease raising efficiency. Gas usage would ultimately be the same.
I have said for many years that gas guzzlers are good for the environment...pretty straight forward. BTW I am somewhat of a Greenie but the way we guzzle energy in the U.S none of us can be called Greenies.
Uh. I know they teach new math these days but still, that's not the kind of math most people agree with.
Roads don't last longer just because traffic is slower, if anything stop and go will wear out the road faster (as seen in the rain where the puddles are, always before the stop lights or stop sign).
In 2019 we have this thing call stop start, and 6 speed transmission, and CVT, and hybrid, and therefore driving slower because of traffic is not as bad as fewer cars on the road because people can't afford to drive. People usually drive more when they have money because they have jobs, and they usually buy bigger cars when they make more money, so mandating smaller cars -> more money for fuel -> drive more doesn't make sense.
Gas usage has been declining always, because things get more efficient, so people decided to buy bigger cars instead of smaller cars, not driving more and buy a smaller cars. Internet makes people drive less, a lot less, because of telecommute and online shopping.
When you think of it small cars probably are no more damaging to the environment than large gas guzzlers. All available fuel will be used in either case. But statistically . If you had X number of small cars on the road getting twice the gas mileage...you would have at any given time [have b]1/2 x X [/b] gas guzzlers on the road. Roads would last longer and traffic slowness would decrease raising efficiency. Gas usage would ultimately be the same.
I have said for many years that gas guzzlers are good for the environment...pretty straight forward. BTW I am somewhat of a Greenie but the way we guzzle energy in the U.S none of us can be called Greenies.
Uh. I know they teach new math these days but still, that's not the kind of math most people agree with.
Roads don't last longer just because traffic is slower, if anything stop and go will wear out the road faster (as seen in the rain where the puddles are, always before the stop lights or stop sign).
In 2019 we have this thing call stop start, and 6 speed transmission, and CVT, and hybrid, and therefore driving slower because of traffic is not as bad as fewer cars on the road because people can't afford to drive. People usually drive more when they have money because they have jobs, and they usually buy bigger cars when they make more money, so mandating smaller cars -> more money for fuel -> drive more doesn't make sense.
Gas usage has been declining always, because things get more efficient, so people decided to buy bigger cars instead of smaller cars, not driving more and buy a smaller cars. Internet makes people drive less, a lot less, because of telecommute and online shopping.
Originally Posted by Al
When you think of it small cars probably are no more damaging to the environment than large gas guzzlers. All available fuel will be used in either case. But statistically . If you had X number of small cars on the road getting twice the gas mileage...you would have at any given time [have b]1/2 x X [/b] gas guzzlers on the road. Roads would last longer and traffic slowness would decrease raising efficiency. Gas usage would ultimately be the same.
I have said for many years that gas guzzlers are good for the environment...pretty straight forward. BTW I am somewhat of a Greenie but the way we guzzle energy in the U.S none of us can be called Greenies.
Whether all of the fuel gets used or not doesn't matter, it's the rate at which it's used. If everyone drove more efficient cars and used up the fuel over a longer period of time, the earth will have more of a chance to recover and not be damaged by it. If everyone in the world fired up their engines right now, and held the pedal to the floor nonstop until all the fuel in the world is burned up, and put all that pollution into the air in such a short period of time, you think that wouldn't have a huge effect over the next few years?
When you think of it small cars probably are no more damaging to the environment than large gas guzzlers. All available fuel will be used in either case. But statistically . If you had X number of small cars on the road getting twice the gas mileage...you would have at any given time [have b]1/2 x X [/b] gas guzzlers on the road. Roads would last longer and traffic slowness would decrease raising efficiency. Gas usage would ultimately be the same.
I have said for many years that gas guzzlers are good for the environment...pretty straight forward. BTW I am somewhat of a Greenie but the way we guzzle energy in the U.S none of us can be called Greenies.
Whether all of the fuel gets used or not doesn't matter, it's the rate at which it's used. If everyone drove more efficient cars and used up the fuel over a longer period of time, the earth will have more of a chance to recover and not be damaged by it. If everyone in the world fired up their engines right now, and held the pedal to the floor nonstop until all the fuel in the world is burned up, and put all that pollution into the air in such a short period of time, you think that wouldn't have a huge effect over the next few years?
Originally Posted by exranger06
If everyone in the world fired up their engines right now, and held the pedal to the floor nonstop until all the fuel in the world is burned up, and put all that pollution into the air in such a short period of time, you think that wouldn't have a huge effect over the next few years?
Well, yeah. We'd all starve to death as the economy collapsed.
Personally, I burn more fuel most years flying than I do driving. I doubt I'm the only one.
If everyone in the world fired up their engines right now, and held the pedal to the floor nonstop until all the fuel in the world is burned up, and put all that pollution into the air in such a short period of time, you think that wouldn't have a huge effect over the next few years?
Well, yeah. We'd all starve to death as the economy collapsed.
Personally, I burn more fuel most years flying than I do driving. I doubt I'm the only one.
Originally Posted by DaRider34
It seems like the more money you spend the better deals are available since larger vehicles have greater margins. Like in some cases why buy a fiesta st on sale for 18-19k when u can get a focus st for 1-2k more.
I purposely bought the Fiesta ST over the Focus ST, regardless of; price differences, any sales/margins, and more power, and a fully independent rear suspension with the Focus ST, because I wanted the superior handling/'tossability' with the 500+ pound lighter (and smaller) Fiesta ST!
Now of course, IF the Focus RS were in that price range NEW, there would be no other choice for me, despite so many saying that the Fiesta ST is much more 'fun' than even that icon.
It seems like the more money you spend the better deals are available since larger vehicles have greater margins. Like in some cases why buy a fiesta st on sale for 18-19k when u can get a focus st for 1-2k more.
I purposely bought the Fiesta ST over the Focus ST, regardless of; price differences, any sales/margins, and more power, and a fully independent rear suspension with the Focus ST, because I wanted the superior handling/'tossability' with the 500+ pound lighter (and smaller) Fiesta ST!
Now of course, IF the Focus RS were in that price range NEW, there would be no other choice for me, despite so many saying that the Fiesta ST is much more 'fun' than even that icon.
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Originally Posted by exranger06
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Whether all of the fuel gets used or not doesn't matter, it's the rate at which it's used. If everyone drove more efficient cars and used up the fuel over a longer period of time, the earth will have more of a chance to recover and not be damaged by it. If everyone in the world fired up their engines right now, and held the pedal to the floor nonstop until all the fuel in the world is burned up, and put all that pollution into the air in such a short period of time, you think that wouldn't have a huge effect over the next few years?
You are not thinking clearly
All that the gasoline produced in a year..(we can't produce a lot more) will be used..so if you have cars getting 15 miles per gallon there will be half (all and all) on the road at any time. (compared to if all cars get 30 mpg) Half the cars means roads last twice as long and commutes are faster.
Originally Posted by PandaBear
Roads don't last longer just because traffic is slower, if anything stop and go will wear out the road faster (as seen in the rain where the puddles are, always before the stop lights or stop sign). .
I said roads last longer if half the cars (guzzlers) are on it at any one time.
[
Whether all of the fuel gets used or not doesn't matter, it's the rate at which it's used. If everyone drove more efficient cars and used up the fuel over a longer period of time, the earth will have more of a chance to recover and not be damaged by it. If everyone in the world fired up their engines right now, and held the pedal to the floor nonstop until all the fuel in the world is burned up, and put all that pollution into the air in such a short period of time, you think that wouldn't have a huge effect over the next few years?
You are not thinking clearly
All that the gasoline produced in a year..(we can't produce a lot more) will be used..so if you have cars getting 15 miles per gallon there will be half (all and all) on the road at any time. (compared to if all cars get 30 mpg) Half the cars means roads last twice as long and commutes are faster.
Originally Posted by PandaBear
Roads don't last longer just because traffic is slower, if anything stop and go will wear out the road faster (as seen in the rain where the puddles are, always before the stop lights or stop sign). .
I said roads last longer if half the cars (guzzlers) are on it at any one time.
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Originally Posted by Al
Originally Posted by exranger06
[
Whether all of the fuel gets used or not doesn't matter, it's the rate at which it's used. If everyone drove more efficient cars and used up the fuel over a longer period of time, the earth will have more of a chance to recover and not be damaged by it. If everyone in the world fired up their engines right now, and held the pedal to the floor nonstop until all the fuel in the world is burned up, and put all that pollution into the air in such a short period of time, you think that wouldn't have a huge effect over the next few years?
You are not thinking clearly
All that the gasoline produced in a year..(we can't produce a lot more) will be used..so if you have cars getting 15 miles per gallon there will be half (all and all) on the road at any time. (compared to if all cars get 30 mpg) Half the cars means roads last twice as long and commutes are faster.
Originally Posted by PandaBear
Roads don't last longer just because traffic is slower, if anything stop and go will wear out the road faster (as seen in the rain where the puddles are, always before the stop lights or stop sign). .
I said roads last longer if half the cars (guzzlers) are on it at any one time.
I think you're incorrect. You're saying we currently use up all the gasoline we can produce? Is there some gas shortage I'm not aware of? You're saying that if everyone drove gas guzzlers, half the population will not be able to drive to work, thus there will be half the amount of cars on the road??
Originally Posted by exranger06
[
Whether all of the fuel gets used or not doesn't matter, it's the rate at which it's used. If everyone drove more efficient cars and used up the fuel over a longer period of time, the earth will have more of a chance to recover and not be damaged by it. If everyone in the world fired up their engines right now, and held the pedal to the floor nonstop until all the fuel in the world is burned up, and put all that pollution into the air in such a short period of time, you think that wouldn't have a huge effect over the next few years?
You are not thinking clearly
All that the gasoline produced in a year..(we can't produce a lot more) will be used..so if you have cars getting 15 miles per gallon there will be half (all and all) on the road at any time. (compared to if all cars get 30 mpg) Half the cars means roads last twice as long and commutes are faster.
Originally Posted by PandaBear
Roads don't last longer just because traffic is slower, if anything stop and go will wear out the road faster (as seen in the rain where the puddles are, always before the stop lights or stop sign). .
I said roads last longer if half the cars (guzzlers) are on it at any one time.
I think you're incorrect. You're saying we currently use up all the gasoline we can produce? Is there some gas shortage I'm not aware of? You're saying that if everyone drove gas guzzlers, half the population will not be able to drive to work, thus there will be half the amount of cars on the road??
Originally Posted by Al
I said roads last longer if half the cars (guzzlers) are on it at any one time.
And I said this is incorrect. Heavier weight kills the road much faster than more light vehicle traffics.
People don't drive 2x as much when fuel economy double as well.
I said roads last longer if half the cars (guzzlers) are on it at any one time.
And I said this is incorrect. Heavier weight kills the road much faster than more light vehicle traffics.
People don't drive 2x as much when fuel economy double as well.
I merely said if there were significantly more gas guzzlers gasoline supplies will not increase nearly commensurate with the increase with guzzlers. In the extreme case where there wouldj be all guzzlers there would be indeed half (about) the miles driven with much less traffic. With all super economy cars miles would go up drastically and so would gridlock...not saying it would be twice though.
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People don't drive 2x as much when fuel economy double as well.
of course not, but the sum total of all people would drive lots more. My main point however is the sum total of driving with all or way way more guzzlers. would go way down
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I think you're incorrect. You're saying we currently use up all the gasoline we can produce? Is there some gas shortage I'm not aware of? You're saying that if everyone drove gas guzzlers, half the population will not be able to drive to work, thus there will be half the amount of cars on the road?? ???
oh scheesch. I said that gasoline supplies can not be expanded "significantly" immediately or even year (s) and remember cost to do it would SIGNIFICANTLY increase gas price. This would further to curtail driving.. And I never even suggested hallfthe population would not drive..how did you come to that conclusion???????
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People don't drive 2x as much when fuel economy double as well.
of course not, but the sum total of all people would drive lots more. My main point however is the sum total of driving with all or way way more guzzlers. would go way down
Quote
I think you're incorrect. You're saying we currently use up all the gasoline we can produce? Is there some gas shortage I'm not aware of? You're saying that if everyone drove gas guzzlers, half the population will not be able to drive to work, thus there will be half the amount of cars on the road?? ???
oh scheesch. I said that gasoline supplies can not be expanded "significantly" immediately or even year (s) and remember cost to do it would SIGNIFICANTLY increase gas price. This would further to curtail driving.. And I never even suggested hallfthe population would not drive..how did you come to that conclusion???????
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Originally Posted by exranger06
I think you're incorrect. You're saying we currently use up all the gasoline we can produce? Is there some gas shortage I'm not aware of? You're saying that if everyone drove gas guzzlers, half the population will not be able to drive to work, thus there will be half the amount of cars on the road??
There's a certain amount of gasoline in storage and there's a certain amount the refineries can make. We basically use up whatever they make although they also ship some of it overseas. When we don't produce enough, we end up importing it just like we do oil. When profit margins are high, the refineries try to run longer without shutting down for maintenance, there are shortages sometimes when refineries go offline for unplanned maintenance.
Right now my car uses premium and I probably spend around $1500 a year on gas or maybe less. It would have no effect on me if the price of gas doubled or tripled, it's still only a few thousand a year. Last gas crisis a friend of mine had just bought a truck a couple years earlier and he was thinking of dumping it, I told him the increased cost per year was in the 1-2k range and he'd probably lose 5-6k or more swapping to something that had better gas mileage. So he kept it and he's still driving it now and that gas spike was only a year or so.
I think you're incorrect. You're saying we currently use up all the gasoline we can produce? Is there some gas shortage I'm not aware of? You're saying that if everyone drove gas guzzlers, half the population will not be able to drive to work, thus there will be half the amount of cars on the road??
There's a certain amount of gasoline in storage and there's a certain amount the refineries can make. We basically use up whatever they make although they also ship some of it overseas. When we don't produce enough, we end up importing it just like we do oil. When profit margins are high, the refineries try to run longer without shutting down for maintenance, there are shortages sometimes when refineries go offline for unplanned maintenance.
Right now my car uses premium and I probably spend around $1500 a year on gas or maybe less. It would have no effect on me if the price of gas doubled or tripled, it's still only a few thousand a year. Last gas crisis a friend of mine had just bought a truck a couple years earlier and he was thinking of dumping it, I told him the increased cost per year was in the 1-2k range and he'd probably lose 5-6k or more swapping to something that had better gas mileage. So he kept it and he's still driving it now and that gas spike was only a year or so.
Originally Posted by Al
I merely said if there were significantly more gas guzzlers gasoline supplies will not increase nearly commensurate with the increase with guzzlers. In the extreme case where there wouldj be all guzzlers there would be indeed half (about) the miles driven with much less traffic. With all super economy cars miles would go up drastically and so would gridlock...not saying it would be twice though.
Quote
People don't drive 2x as much when fuel economy double as well.
of course not, but the sum total of all people would drive lots more. My main point however is the sum total of driving with all or way way more guzzlers. would go way down
Quote
I think you're incorrect. You're saying we currently use up all the gasoline we can produce? Is there some gas shortage I'm not aware of? You're saying that if everyone drove gas guzzlers, half the population will not be able to drive to work, thus there will be half the amount of cars on the road?? ???
oh scheesch. I said that gasoline supplies can not be expanded "significantly" immediately or even year (s) and remember cost to do it would SIGNIFICANTLY increase gas price. This would further to curtail driving.. And I never even suggested hallfthe population would not drive..how did you come to that conclusion???????
I came to that conclusion because you said if cars got half the gas mileage, there would be HALF as many cars on the road. Which is incorrect. It doesn't matter what mileage cars get; you have X amount of drivers in this country and they all need to get places. They're going to drive their vehicles regardless of the mileage they get. Therefore there will not be a significant reduction in the number of vehicles on the road.
I merely said if there were significantly more gas guzzlers gasoline supplies will not increase nearly commensurate with the increase with guzzlers. In the extreme case where there wouldj be all guzzlers there would be indeed half (about) the miles driven with much less traffic. With all super economy cars miles would go up drastically and so would gridlock...not saying it would be twice though.
Quote
People don't drive 2x as much when fuel economy double as well.
of course not, but the sum total of all people would drive lots more. My main point however is the sum total of driving with all or way way more guzzlers. would go way down
Quote
I think you're incorrect. You're saying we currently use up all the gasoline we can produce? Is there some gas shortage I'm not aware of? You're saying that if everyone drove gas guzzlers, half the population will not be able to drive to work, thus there will be half the amount of cars on the road?? ???
oh scheesch. I said that gasoline supplies can not be expanded "significantly" immediately or even year (s) and remember cost to do it would SIGNIFICANTLY increase gas price. This would further to curtail driving.. And I never even suggested hallfthe population would not drive..how did you come to that conclusion???????
I came to that conclusion because you said if cars got half the gas mileage, there would be HALF as many cars on the road. Which is incorrect. It doesn't matter what mileage cars get; you have X amount of drivers in this country and they all need to get places. They're going to drive their vehicles regardless of the mileage they get. Therefore there will not be a significant reduction in the number of vehicles on the road.
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