Furnace Brands and Models

I tell my Traeger-head friend that they started out making pellet stoves before smokers. He finds that hard to believe.
I still find it hard to believe they focus the US market on something as stupid as smokers.

When my father bought this it was during the corn burning furnace gimmick marketed at fairs

Over time corn and pellets have become more valuable than gold but when it’s 0F down to -30F the pellet furnace makes for warm floors and much more pleasant heat, also have a quarter ton left I want to use

Oddly my 1993 era furnace is still supposedly produced but I will likely have to deal with Quebec to order parts :(

All the so called compatibile parts sold online aren’t for my furnace
 
I still find it hard to believe they focus the US market on something as stupid as smokers.

When my father bought this it was during the corn burning furnace gimmick marketed at fairs

Over time corn and pellets have become more valuable than gold but when it’s 0F down to -30F the pellet furnace makes for warm floors and much more pleasant heat, also have a quarter ton left I want to use

Oddly my 1993 era furnace is still supposedly produced but I will likely have to deal with Quebec to order parts :(

All the so called compatibile parts sold online aren’t for my furnace
Yea, all Tragers are made in China. Smokers are more of a “status symbol” than a heating stove. And much more profitable.
 
Didn't directly answer your question previously. I worked in HVAC, but it was a quarter century ago. My younger cousin still does. He picked (could get a good price on) a Tempstar furnace (and he's familiar with them), and I had no argument, will be doing 90% maintenance and repairs on it myself but if I need someone more versed in modern furnaces, there's him or a larger array of techs and the parts availability seems better than other non-carrier brands too. Granted, "many" major brands will have parts support through many channels because there are so many potential customers to make it worthwhile.

Maybe it comes back more to, it's not which furnace you pick, but which specific technician you end up with, when it is time to repair it. It reminds me of automobiles but IMO, there is less variance in quality for furnaces than automobiles, and ironically, sometimes buying less than top of the line in efficiency/features, means fewer failure points and longer life by avoiding the early failure points - but then lower efficiency, so all those years you save on the heating bill, may be not so much savings once the repairs are needed.

There are a lot of variables and some depend on the particular premises. Suppose you have a long flue run to the building exit, then all the more you increase early rust-through of the heat exchanger because that long run (especially if uninsulated which is usually the case), cools the exhaust and more water vapor condenses and drains back down into the furnace. I've already went too far down a tangent, then there are considerations of flue pipe size, temperature of the area ran through, whether the condensate trap was cleaned on a timely basis and more.

It's kind of like a brake pad slap, brake replacement, where the tech putting your new furnace in, can just do the bare minimum necessary to make it work, or can look at what caused the demise of the old, and recondition or re-estimate the optimal factors that should be present for best results. Then again > 20 years is not a short life for a modern, high efficiency furnace. Increase the complexity and the components/metal prices, and something has to give.
 
It tuns out that the secondary heat exchanger is now either cracked or clogged. A new furnace is recommended. As I mentioned above, present company sells York, which gives me slight pause.
 
That great installer spiel is smoke and mirror talk. Tired of hearing it.
You need a high quality product with high quality installers and correctly sized.

Otherwise you have finely installed junk...The cost of a unit does not indicate quality either. Look at Bosch. Often when you buy junk they force you to buy an extended warranty and they are not cheap.
Better off buying a quality unit in the first place.

Did you ever have a hvac company tell you they were unqualified?
 
We went with Carrier about 15ish years ago and not one issue so far. The guy we went with took over the business from his dad who took it over from his dad and was friends with my late FIL. He also gives us free filters, we just call and say we need filters and a couple days later there is a box of five filters by our back door.
 
There are only a handful of major HVAC manufacturers in the industry, but that is changing as the Asian made influences infiltrate the market.

The "American" companies are corporate holders of many sub-brands. For example:

Carrier owns and makes
- Carrier
- Bryant
- Payne
but they also own and make the ICP brands:
- Tempstar
- Air Quest
- Keep Rite
- Comfortmaker
- Heil
- ArcoAire
- Day and Night
- private labeled brands like some Kenmore, Watsco, etc

The same can be said for Trane; they own and make their sub-brands like American Stanard and Ameristar.
As does Rheem; it also makes Rudd.


I think the thing I find most laughably interesting is that many folks will swear by one brand, and dis another, and yet those brands are nearly always made in the same plants by the same people using the same parts.

When I worked at Ford, I once had a conversation with a person that swore his Mercury Sable was a better built car than my Ford Taurus. I can attest that is total garbage, mainly because I had walked down the assembly line in the Chicago assembly plant and saw Sables and Tasrus' (Tauruses? Taurii? LOL) coming down the line in succession, one right after the other. Also, at the Ford plant where I worked, we made the steering components for those cars, and there was zero distinction between a Ford and Mercury steering gear; they were the same part number! I never worked at GM, but I've had the same conversations with guys and gals who worked at GM; they laughed with me. People would swear a GMC truck is better than a Chevy; they both use the same major parts and go down the same line in Ft. Wayne, IN !!!

Same could be said when I worked in the HVAC manufacturing industry. I had someone once tell me that a Carrier was far better than a Bryant. I can attest with 100% certainty that those two brands went down the exact same assembly line, using the same parts (for equal BOM'd units), and were put together by the same people. Though I never worked at Trane, I know folks who did, and they say the same thing.

You can thank a combination of brand marketing and anecdotal (good or bad) experiences for most all of the bias in many product opinions today.

I would agree that much of the success or failure of your HVAC system is a function of the quality/skills of the installer. He/she has a lot of influence over how well the system is sized, and installed. And ducts are a very big influence which go completely ignored in system performance. A poor duct job can make the best HVAC system seem like junk, and vice versa.

Is a Carrier built product better than a Trane built product? I'm not convinced yes or no. They are both good makes of OEM stuff. In terms of engineering, Carrier and Trane pretty much lead the industry development and bring new tech to market. Other makers simply fall in line once the path is already cleared. I once had a conversation with a sub-component supplier that told me when he was at a competitors facility, their engineers simply asked him "Does Carrier use this part?" ... "Yes they do." ... "Well then it's good enough for us; we're not going to reinvent the wheel if they've already tested and approved the design." This is common in the industry; Carrier and Trane spend a lot of time designing and proving out components, and then other OEMs simply sit and wait. That drives up the costs at Carrier and Trane, and then saves their competitors the investment costs. So when you wonder why some brands (for example, Goodman) are cheaper, it's because they don't put as much investment into their products. I'm not saying they don't engineer their own units, but they do ride the coattails of other brands at times.

I've also seen Consumer Reports over many years say "this brand has better reliability than that brand", for units that come down the same assembly lines. So take that source with a grain of salt.

I always recommend folks who are shopping for HVAC systems pick a few competing brands from well established local dealer/installer companies. You want a brand name you recognize supported by a long-standing local group who can help service/maintain your system should something go wrong. Then cross your fingers and hope for the best.


Oh, and by the way, ALL the HVAC manufacturers use parts sourced from over seas; pretty much impossible to get away from that. China, Korea, etc all compete in the markets for capacitors, compressors, TXVs, ignitors, blower motors, wire harnesses, .... this list is nearly endless. About the only stuff in a major HVAC unit which is "American made" is often the steel and the insulation blankets and a few odds/ends. All the major sub-components are made elsewhere. Some units are made (assembled) in the US; many are Hencho in Mexico.
 
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Thanks for the replies. My contractor want to install a York YP9C modulating furnace, as I have some uneven heating in part of the house. I will get some other quotes.

 
My whole system is York and it's about 10 years old and has been well maintained per all the records left behind by the previous owner. I bought this house 3 years ago. I've needed HVAC repairs at least a couple of times per year every year and sometimes more. Not huge expensive repairs but the frequency has me unimpressed with their quality. Whenever the time comes to replace this current system it won't be a York.
 
Thanks for the replies. My contractor want to install a York YP9C modulating furnace, as I have some uneven heating in part of the house. I will get some other quotes.

Modulating adds complexity, TBD on reliability. I went with a 2-stage which is the middle ground between comfort and reliability IMO.
 
My whole system is York and it's about 10 years old and has been well maintained per all the records left behind by the previous owner. I bought this house 3 years ago. I've needed HVAC repairs at least a couple of times per year every year and sometimes more. Not huge expensive repairs but the frequency has me unimpressed with their quality. Whenever the time comes to replace this current system it won't be a York.
"Unimpressed" is putting it mildly, that's downright horrendous. Most furnaces don't need touched (except air filter, and humidifier dispersal medium if so equipped) for the first 15 years, then (or if set to fan always on, or a dusty environment) the coils and blower cage cleaned out, preventative maintenance not parts. The majority then still run another 5+ with nothing needed, then various things start to show their age, relays, motor bearings, and others depending on some variables.

One exception might be the flame sensor, it may need cleaned off every now and then (decade or so, unless you use some excessively abrasive cleaner that creates rough ness that traps soot, then more often). This is arguably a DIY thing to do, even to those who have no prior knowledge of HVAC. Pop the cover, take off the screw/bolt holding it in, metal polish (or very fine steel wool) and patience beats sand paper, unless you're a paid tech trying to get the job done ASAP.
 
My house is 13 years old, the furnace is an Armstrong Air and other than filters and one flame sensor, I literally have done nothing to it. Never cleaned it or anything. I am looking at putting in central AC this spring and will probably get it serviced at the same time.
 
That great installer spiel is smoke and mirror talk. Tired of hearing it.
...
Did you ever have a hvac company tell you they were unqualified?
x2 I never understood what this "the installer is more important than the equipment" business is supposed to mean in actionable terms for a consumer. The reality is most HVAC replacements are done under duress of some sort, that is it has failed in the middle of the summer or winter and you need it replaced soonest. How is joe-blow homeowner supposed to ascertain that a particular installer is especially skilled? Of course stick with an established local company, but beyond that how do you know the guys who show up on install day are going to be "good"? Or is that all it is - don't hire a handyman or unlicensed contractor to do the work? Not terribly insightful advice but I guess some people need the obvious pointed out?

jeff
 
That great installer spiel is smoke and mirror talk. Tired of hearing it.
You need a high quality product with high quality installers and correctly sized.

Otherwise you have finely installed junk...The cost of a unit does not indicate quality either. Look at Bosch. Often when you buy junk they force you to buy an extended warranty and they are not cheap.
Better off buying a quality unit in the first place.

Did you ever have a hvac company tell you they were unqualified?
It’s far more important for initial install than it is for replacement…. Though there are installers out there who base equipment size on nothing more than square footage. I’m a firm believer in a properly installed and sized mid range system will be far far better than an uber expensive high end system that’s too large and/or struggling for air (since most ductwork is not size appropriately).

For example, at my old house the equipment was way WAY too big for the 1200sq ft house… 100k btu furnace and I forget how many tons AC. The AC wasn’t even comfortable because it would just be cold and muggy (60-65% was the best it would manage) in the house. Decent components+poor install=uncomfortable as heck.
 
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New question, as I am getting conflicting opinions from contractors: how would one resolve choosing between a two-stage or a modulating system?
 
Modulating parts are more expensive more failure prone and less easily understood by the average run-of-the-mill Tech. As someone who does this for a living I can strongly suggest a two stage and avoid York products. The only way I would suggest modulating is if we are doing a full variable AC and a zone system; and that situation you could avoid bypasses or not allowing zones to fully close and things of that nature.
If you're on natural gas or propane I highly recommend the trane S9 V2 variable speed blower two-stage gas valve furnace. They are I believe the only residential manufactured that still produces a stainless steel heat exchanger primary and secondary. Everything is easy to access circuit wire shielded against water leaking from above Down the Road and squared off tubing to prevent Kinks and issues with the vacuum circuits. Trane has some very nice features that you do pay for but are probably worth it unless you're selling a house tomorrow.
 
Modulating parts are more expensive more failure prone and less easily understood by the average run-of-the-mill Tech. As someone who does this for a living I can strongly suggest a two stage and avoid York products. The only way I would suggest modulating is if we are doing a full variable AC and a zone system; and that situation you could avoid bypasses or not allowing zones to fully close and things of that nature.
If you're on natural gas or propane I highly recommend the trane S9 V2 variable speed blower two-stage gas valve furnace. They are I believe the only residential manufactured that still produces a stainless steel heat exchanger primary and secondary. Everything is easy to access circuit wire shielded against water leaking from above Down the Road and squared off tubing to prevent Kinks and issues with the vacuum circuits. Trane has some very nice features that you do pay for but are probably worth it unless you're selling a house tomorrow.
Love my S9V2...very quiet and easy to change settings on the board as well. Paired with an Aprilaire filter box I'm happy with the system.
 
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