Frustration with continuing "staffing issues"

add this and the news of more people in the workforce than before the Covid shutdown tells me the math don’t add up.to me, something else is going on here.
Then someone please explain why it’s been reported this week that all the workers displaced during Covid have been replaced numerically-wise.
The authority on this is supposed to be the federal reserve bank, and they publish this stuff on their FRED database website.

According to them, the labor participation rate has dropped from 63.4 to 62.1% https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART. It comes from what is known as the household survey - they call various households across the country.

Also according to them the total civilian workforce has returned to pre covid levels. It comes from the "establishment survey" https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PAYEMS

So different surveys. Choose which one you want to believe.
 
Stepping on soap box.

I work with children under stressful situations every day and it's my job to manage those children and their parents - this is my area of expertise.

Parenting has been a dying art for decades and I agree that our generation (I'm 43) made the mistake of trying to be our kid's "friends" and not their parents. Every day I see maladapted children and I estimate that when I see a child with no coping skills 90% of the time I see a parent who has no idea how to parent. The other 10% of the time and I do see this as well, you have kids with biological reasons for their poor behavior. If it's not outright poor coping it's a complete inability to speak to other human beings. Every day I walk into rooms with 16 to18-year-olds and ask them how's it going or what have you been up to this summer and 80% of the time I get an annoyed response like, "I don't know". Really? You don't know what you did this summer. Inevitably there is a parent there who either says nothing at all or proceeds to give the answer. It's hard to believe how many parents I see in their 40-50s with no coping skills and the apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree.

I have three teenage sons and while not perfect I don't think a week goes by that my wife or I don't get some compliment about their behavior. Last week all three were at the pediatrician and the nurse and doc wouldn't shut up about how nice they were and how easy it was to talk to them. We get compliments from their friend's parents all the time. My 16-year-old has two jobs this summer and at both restaurants, his managers beelined it for us to tell us how great he is, he's a great worker, awesome with customers, and just a nice kid. This isn't just in public, they're really nice kids at home too. They have friends. They have lives outside of the house. They all really like being home too. The 16-year-old will yell out as he crosses the school parking lot that he loves me in front of everyone without any embarrassment. They also have really nice friends too who are all every similar.

What's our secret? My wife and I were never their friends - we are their parents. We are in charge. We are the captains of the ship. We run what we call a benevolent co-dictatorship. We have always had clear expectations. We have always modeled the behavior we expected of our children. We very rarely yell and it's a very quiet house. We have always treated them like people speaking to them and not at them. When they were 5 and did something wrong and I asked why did they do that I didn't accept I don't know - I really wanted to know and when I get their answer I was very clear that whatever they did was not acceptable and it will not happen again - it rarely ever happened again. I've never had to be physical. I've rarely had to yell (sure every parent has their moments). Well, I did once chase the 14-year-old through the house (he was 11 or 12) and pin him up against the front door and tell him I would end him if he ever slammed a door in my face again and while not my finest moment that is really the extent of that kind of stuff. When the kids were little and they didn't want vaccinations because it will hurt - too bad so sad sometimes things in life hurt and you'll get over it. Oh you're anxious about your test tomorrow and we'd discuss that anxiety is a physiological response to prepare them for something important and while it's not an awesome feeling it's normal to feel anxious from time to time and it is NOT reasonable to think you can just flee anxiety-inducing situations or never feel anxiety. We taught them to not think of it as a bad feeling to avoid but to understand it is a short-term feeling that will resolve after they complete the task. Turns out they got over the pain of the vaccinations and through the anxiety of the test and life went on. We made sure when we saw people out or people came over that the kids would stop, make eye contact, say hello and introduce themselves, and shake the person's hand. We have always pushed manners. How to eat at a table, etc, etc, etc. The 16-year-old comes home from work and says some guy was mean or whatever and my response is there are all kinds of A-holes in the world do your job and forget about it - don't give someone else the power to ruin your day.

As they got older I also started talking to them about how this is THEIR life and not mine and not their mother's - we're both very happy with our lives. THEY need to do well in school for THEM because their mother and I already did our homework. THEY need to learn how to navigate school, work, and the adult world because one day soon we are kicking them out and they will be on their own. THEY need to be self-sufficient because this gravy train is coming to an end. THEY need to learn how to get **** done because the world is a harsh and unforgiving place and it really doesn't care about them or think they are special. All that said, 99% of the time it's love, respect, checking in with them to talk about their day, hugs throughout the day and I love you. Sure, all three can be little ****s too but these days it's usually pretty funny sarcasm...

Now, none of that is revolutionary in my mind - that's just basic parenting. We have friends, with maladapted children, who can't parent to save their own lives and their children misbehave all the time and can't figure out why when they come over my kids are so nice, there's no fighting, and why the house is so quiet. It's that way because we've made it that way. They are well-adjusted because we made them that way and we've given the tools they need to be successful and now it's up to THEM to be whoever it is they want to be in THEIR lives.

Steps off soap box.
I'm not exactly sure because the way I was raised is not at all how my son (8 years old) is being raised. My wife is his best friend. That's 50% of it right there. One thing I would say, I was not raised with hugs nor kisses. If I ranked 31/367 in HS (actual number), it was not good enough, that's barely top 10% (back then it was actually good enough for top colleges, today? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha that might not get into a state university).

So what's it gonna be, tiger mom (my upbringing) or let them do their best and accept it. Do they need to make the HS varsity soccer team in 7th or 8th grade so they get that scholarship to a Div I school that also is good academically?

I just know that in my time? The best colleges were around 19% acceptance, and today, they're 4%. Schools that I would have considered never going to but used as safety schools, 8-10%. What's at stake? Money. Elite colleges are either free, or 10% of income plus assets, i.e. cheaper than a public school. What's it worth to have that perfect, high achieving kid, by age 17? I don't really know.

I do find when my son is upset he wants me. I think it's because he'll get a fair deal, where is my wife is at both extremes. I qualify all of the above by saying I don't know the answers, besides, my kid is only 8, nothing is in the rearview at this time...my .02
 
Boomers are starting to find they are competing with other boomers for scarce resources (labor).

This won't be solvable with a government transfer of money, as they would still all be on equal footing. Boomers vote, so this will probably be attempted anyway.

Best fix is to retire richer than your neighbor, retain skills and physical condition, and retain a network of people who'll help you off the clock as personal favors. And FFS own the land you live on.
 
The authority on this is supposed to be the federal reserve bank, and they publish this stuff on their FRED database website.

According to them, the labor participation rate has dropped from 63.4 to 62.1% https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART. It comes from what is known as the household survey - they call various households across the country.

Also according to them the total civilian workforce has returned to pre covid levels. It comes from the "establishment survey" https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PAYEMS

So different surveys. Choose which one you want to believe.
Unfortunately, surveys do not convey the real world I see and hear every day, I see more “help wanted” signs, and “we don’t have the staff” excuses every day. I also hear this month the job rate has exceeded the pre covid rate. If that’s the case, then getting a job should be a fight. Rather now I can walk into darn near any place and if I breathe and have a heartbeat I got the job, and not for the below $15 minimum wage. Again, what’s being said and seen is not the math I learned in school.
 
We have a whitish with blue tint collar job open in a state that is experiencing an exodus. We have had no applicants. This is a low 6 figure job with a company truck that is yours to use as you wish personally. Benefits are outstanding.

No applicants. My boss asked me if I’d do it, as I have family nearby. I refuse to move back to that state.

Why no applicants? It requires some busy seasons (Ag), meaning some Saturdays and long nights 3 months a year. Having once had this job, I was able to organize and enthuse my team into being efficient and getting more done in less time. Give and take mentality.

What I see today is that an employee wants a 3x reward for any hour over the 40 hours, even with excellent pay. The ”gimme” society is not willing to work.

Thank goodness we have hard working legal immigrants that want to come here. Our company is attracting lots of people from South America who want to earn a great living and have a rewarding career. They are driven people for sure.
 
This is a huge driving force behind my vehicle choices. I keep two old GMT800s that I know inside and out and can fix anything on.

I will never be at the mercy again of a dealer with a brand-new tech laden vehicle where there is no one who can fix it. It is very frustrating.
 
What I see today is that an employee wants a 3x reward for any hour over the 40 hours, even with excellent pay. The ”gimme” society is not willing to work.
How does one reconcile that with the desire to not be taken advantage of? or, if one can ask for more, why not?

Seems normal to ask for top dollar on a trade in, while demanding lowest cost while buying a car. Is there an analogy for work?

where is the balance between most pay for least work, and most work for least pay?
 
Unfortunately, surveys do not convey the real world I see and hear every day, I see more “help wanted” signs, and “we don’t have the staff” excuses every day. I also hear this month the job rate has exceeded the pre covid rate. If that’s the case, then getting a job should be a fight. Rather now I can walk into darn near any place and if I breathe and have a heartbeat I got the job, and not for the below $15 minimum wage. Again, what’s being said and seen is not the math I learned in school.
I can't honestly explain the disconnect. But at my co has 2,300 positions that we can't fill. It would help to say in what space, of course. Warehousing and distribution. Not only can we not get trucks, forklifts, concrete, steel, IT equipment, but when we do, we can't hire all the staff needed to run them. I can only speak what I see. I don't think they're excuses, I think for one, distribution centers are located among others. So there are staff who break for lunch, and never come back as they got hired at amazon for more. If it weren't that easy, it wouldn't happen. Amazon promises quick pay and instant benefits. We don't. We also drug test. We don't pay truck drivers $110k first year as Walmart does. there are a lot of moving parts but at the end of the day we have north of 2k jobs unfilled across the USA.

My friend has not worked in 15+ years and he says that it's a myth that there are lots of jobs. I do in fact know he turned down a $17/hr job at a supermarket.

But I also feel he's "dabbling" at finding work, not b*** to the wall. And not everyone has an inheritence as he does. So while he lives frugally as to not deplete it, some in the same scenario would take a $17/hr job.
 
So what's it gonna be, tiger mom (my upbringing) or let them do their best and accept it. Do they need to make the HS varsity soccer team in 7th or 8th grade so they get that scholarship to a Div I school that also is good academically?
Like most things in life, it's a balance IMO. My wife and I are not lawnmower parents who step in and mow down all obstacles but our house also isn't a hippie commune where kids raise themselves. If one of my kids has an issue with a teacher we leave it up to them to talk to the teacher. If whatever the teacher decided seemed unfair to the kid too bad, sometimes life isn't fair. Now does that mean we'd let a huge injustice stand without stepping in? Of course not, but if you missed the deadline for your homework and you were hoping the teacher would give you an extension and he/she decides not to that's just too **** bad...get it in on time next time...there are rules for a reason and none of my kids are above the rules...we teach them they live within the rules. If there is a big issue with a teacher, I have to be honest, we assume the teacher is in the right and our kid is wrong until proven otherwise. This only happened once so far with the principal reporting my kid was harassing another kid in class and calling him racist slurs. My kids know that would bring down on them something they never want to see and I know them. When I emailed the teacher just to inquire what was going on she was shocked - there's another kid in the class with a similar last name and it wasn't my kid. My kid and I got a huge apology from the principal - cool, move on with life.

The only I show disappointment is when they do something really dumb...like not try at all or mess up something important that was easy or my current battle where the 16-year-old forgets to close the garage when he leaves because I've asked him 32 million times. These will get my attention and they will hear my thoughts on it but that does not mean they have to be straight-A students or perfect. It does not mean they have to do as well as my wife or I did (we both have doctorates and were 4.0 students). I love science and math and I'm getting my MBA because I'm intellectually bored. My 16-year-old hates science and math even though he is good at it but wants nothing to do with it for a career. He's an awesome park skier and can effortlessly do a backflip. My 14-year-old loves science and math but really kinda sucks at it but he's a spectacular musician. He can read and write music on multiple instruments and is currently learning music theory. We encourage him to do his best but accept 1+1 doesn't always equal 2 in his head but he can take a Tool song and dissect out the polyrhythms with ease - he's also one of the funniest people I've ever met. My 12-year-old loves everything and can learn anything effortlessly - he's most like me. There is a minimum expectation as far as performance but we are proud of them for whatever talents they have and that's what we allow them to focus on once they meet the minimum performance standard for everything else. If they try and don't do well on a test or whatever I can live with that as long as the effort was there.

BUT, they still understand whatever talents they have and whatever interest they have and however well they do or don't perform in school the end result IS ON THEM and THEY are the ones who will benefit or suffer the consequences of their choices and actions.
 
Last edited:
This is a huge driving force behind my vehicle choices. I keep two old GMT800s that I know inside and out and can fix anything on.

I will never be at the mercy again of a dealer with a brand-new tech laden vehicle where there is no one who can fix it. It is very frustrating.
I look at your sig and your cars, and smile. I know a few people who have 3 gen of Suburbans, excluding the current one. The newest (I want to say 2014 or 2016 in that ballpark) had an issue with wind buffeting that I don't think was ever solved. But imagine a 1996'ish, if I had one, I'd keep on keepin' on!
 
Stepping on soap box.

I work with children under stressful situations every day and it's my job to manage those children and their parents - this is my area of expertise.

Parenting has been a dying art for decades and I agree that our generation (I'm 43) made the mistake of trying to be our kid's "friends" and not their parents. Every day I see maladapted children and I estimate that when I see a child with no coping skills 90% of the time I see a parent who has no idea how to parent. The other 10% of the time and I do see this as well, you have kids with biological reasons for their poor behavior. If it's not outright poor coping it's a complete inability to speak to other human beings. Every day I walk into rooms with 16 to18-year-olds and ask them how's it going or what have you been up to this summer and 80% of the time I get an annoyed response like, "I don't know". Really? You don't know what you did this summer. Inevitably there is a parent there who either says nothing at all or proceeds to give the answer. It's hard to believe how many parents I see in their 40-50s with no coping skills and the apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree.

I have three teenage sons and while not perfect I don't think a week goes by that my wife or I don't get some compliment about their behavior. Last week all three were at the pediatrician and the nurse and doc wouldn't shut up about how nice they were and how easy it was to talk to them. We get compliments from their friend's parents all the time. My 16-year-old has two jobs this summer and at both restaurants, his managers beelined it for us to tell us how great he is, he's a great worker, awesome with customers, and just a nice kid. This isn't just in public, they're really nice kids at home too. They have friends. They have lives outside of the house. They all really like being home too. The 16-year-old will yell out as he crosses the school parking lot that he loves me in front of everyone without any embarrassment. They also have really nice friends too who are all every similar.

What's our secret? My wife and I were never their friends - we are their parents. We are in charge. We are the captains of the ship. We run what we call a benevolent co-dictatorship. We have always had clear expectations. We have always modeled the behavior we expected of our children. We very rarely yell and it's a very quiet house. We have always treated them like people speaking to them and not at them. When they were 5 and did something wrong and I asked why did they do that I didn't accept I don't know - I really wanted to know and when I get their answer I was very clear that whatever they did was not acceptable and it will not happen again - it rarely ever happened again. I've never had to be physical. I've rarely had to yell (sure every parent has their moments). Well, I did once chase the 14-year-old through the house (he was 11 or 12) and pin him up against the front door and tell him I would end him if he ever slammed a door in my face again and while not my finest moment that is really the extent of that kind of stuff. When the kids were little and they didn't want vaccinations because it will hurt - too bad so sad sometimes things in life hurt and you'll get over it. Oh you're anxious about your test tomorrow and we'd discuss that anxiety is a physiological response to prepare them for something important and while it's not an awesome feeling it's normal to feel anxious from time to time and it is NOT reasonable to think you can just flee anxiety-inducing situations or never feel anxiety. We taught them to not think of it as a bad feeling to avoid but to understand it is a short-term feeling that will resolve after they complete the task. Turns out they got over the pain of the vaccinations and through the anxiety of the test and life went on. We made sure when we saw people out or people came over that the kids would stop, make eye contact, say hello and introduce themselves, and shake the person's hand. We have always pushed manners. How to eat at a table, etc, etc, etc. The 16-year-old comes home from work and says some guy was mean or whatever and my response is there are all kinds of A-holes in the world do your job and forget about it - don't give someone else the power to ruin your day.

As they got older I also started talking to them about how this is THEIR life and not mine and not their mother's - we're both very happy with our lives. THEY need to do well in school for THEM because their mother and I already did our homework. THEY need to learn how to navigate school, work, and the adult world because one day soon we are kicking them out and they will be on their own. THEY need to be self-sufficient because this gravy train is coming to an end. THEY need to learn how to get **** done because the world is a harsh and unforgiving place and it really doesn't care about them or think they are special. All that said, 99% of the time it's love, respect, checking in with them to talk about their day, hugs throughout the day and I love you. Sure, all three can be little ****s too but these days it's usually pretty funny sarcasm...

Now, none of that is revolutionary in my mind - that's just basic parenting. We have friends, with maladapted children, who can't parent to save their own lives and their children misbehave all the time and can't figure out why when they come over my kids are so nice, there's no fighting, and why the house is so quiet. It's that way because we've made it that way. They are well-adjusted because we made them that way and we've given the tools they need to be successful and now it's up to THEM to be whoever it is they want to be in THEIR lives.

Steps off soap box.
Very well stated! You are a parent, not little Johnny's friend. This message should be read by every potential parent before they decide to have children.

I am not a parent, but have many friends who are parents. Fortunately, most of my friends are good parents and could appreciate your message PWMDMD.
 
Very well stated! You are a parent, not little Johnny's friend. This message should be read by every potential parent before they decide to have children.

I am not a parent, but have many friends who are parents. Fortunately, most of my friends are good parents and could appreciate your message PWMDMD.
I agree, that was well stated!

And again I have no answers.

When I look at friends' kids, a couple stand out as being good kids who have grown. I think there are trade-offs.

Before the pandemic in 2019 I had a business trip to LA. So I visited my wife's bff out there (one of about 5), and we got together on a Sunday afternoon. Went to church with them, and she had her 2 kids, about 11th grade and frosh at a local state college. They are super respectful--did not want to go to lunch where she wanted to take me, but they did. And when I say respectful, I watched the way they objected and resisted and finally compromised. to me, they were raised right. The flip side you say....both are MDs, and neither of the children aspired to become MDs. I get that it's ok, but imho a serious leg up if they had an interest. In my time, my parents said you have two choices--be a doctor, or an engineer. Lawyer doesn't cut it. I wanted to be a lawyer and honestly think I could have been a decent one, but who knows lol
 
I can't honestly explain the disconnect. But at my co has 2,300 positions that we can't fill. It would help to say in what space, of course. Warehousing and distribution. Not only can we not get trucks, forklifts, concrete, steel, IT equipment, but when we do, we can't hire all the staff needed to run them. I can only speak what I see. I don't think they're excuses, I think for one, distribution centers are located among others. So there are staff who break for lunch, and never come back as they got hired at amazon for more. If it weren't that easy, it wouldn't happen. Amazon promises quick pay and instant benefits. We don't. We also drug test. We don't pay truck drivers $110k first year as Walmart does. there are a lot of moving parts but at the end of the day we have north of 2k jobs unfilled across the USA.
No real mystery here, those jobs are going unfilled because the compensation being offered isn't competitive.
 
How does one reconcile that with the desire to not be taken advantage of? or, if one can ask for more, why not?

Seems normal to ask for top dollar on a trade in, while demanding lowest cost while buying a car. Is there an analogy for work?

where is the balance between most pay for least work, and most work for least pay?
We already compensate for it with bonus days off for each extra day worked. That used to be acceptable. Now it’s considered taking advantage of, unless they get more than was asked.
 
This isn't intended to be generational bashing, and often the younger crowd have good points about businesses demanding loyalty, hard work, and long hours without doing anything for employees in return. But that's no excuse for the lack of work ethic I've seen with most of the under–35 crowd, including temps at work. There are exceptions who perform and do well. They are overshadowed by the others around their age.

I'm talking about not just calling in sick, but simply not showing up 1–2 days of a 4–day workweek with no call, no warning. I'm talking about chronic tardiness and sneaking out early because "reasons". I'm talking about visible goofing off by talking or playing games on smartphones when there's work backing up.

Others have confirmed that many of those under 40 seem convinced that a universal basic income in some fashion is coming so they won't have to work. The staffing shortages are (partly) the result of the younger crowd living off parents, significant others, other relatives, et al., because they assume they'll be allowed to continue doing this once that money becomes a reality.

Parents are partly to blame, but so are the schools. Employers have complained for decades that even universities aren't teaching the students anything relevant to the workforce. Guidance counselors in high school tell students it's not what kind of degree, but what you do with it, which is broadly untrue as kids choose easy majors over STEM and disdain trades entirely. Creative writing, anyone? By the way, the other thing the youth believe is that their student loan debt will be forgiven, so their useless degree won't matter. Wow, universal basic income and student debt forgiveness! I get to stay home and play video games all day!

That's how you end up with staffing shortages across the board and well paid vacancies that remain unfilled. No wonder it's hard to get a transmission repaired in a reasonable time.
 
No real mystery here, those jobs are going unfilled because the compensation being offered isn't competitive.
I would disagree. Some do anything to put food on the table. But I would argue that folks are more choosy--can I start at 10 AM, and leave at 2:30 PM, my kid gets off from school. No? Then I'll not accept the offer. I've seen 70+ yo job hopping--in IT and in banking. I would not say the compensation is better, but the terms are. Do they have to go in, what are the hours, is it 6 or 8 weeks vacation to start. My bro has a job 37.5 hours and he's a so-called (who isn't in those fields) SVP. If they are going to consistently work more than 37.5, need to get management approval. That was kind of funny to me. We routinely work 60+ in my field and are salaried lol
 
I would disagree. Some do anything to put food on the table. But I would argue that folks are more choosy--can I start at 10 AM, and leave at 2:30 PM, my kid gets off from school. No? Then I'll not accept the offer. I've seen 70+ yo job hopping--in IT and in banking. I would not say the compensation is better, but the terms are. Do they have to go in, what are the hours, is it 6 or 8 weeks vacation to start. My bro has a job 37.5 hours and he's a so-called (who isn't in those fields) SVP. If they are going to consistently work more than 37.5, need to get management approval. That was kind of funny to me. We routinely work 60+ in my field and are salaried lol

So you want people to work 60+ hrs a week with compensation packages less than what Amazon and Walmart pay? Good luck with that.
 
So you want people to work 60+ hrs a week with compensation packages less than what Amazon and Walmart pay? Good luck with that.
Thanks for the good wishes. You misunderstood but I don't want to derail the thread. We pay six figures in the distribution space, we have to. But these days, pay is not enough, it's the terms such as hours, vacation, location, benefits, etc. Personally, and it's only my opinion ymmv, I find $110k for a trucking position to be good pay. I find $190k as a patrolman in my town good pay. But there are jobs unfilled now (they don't start at 190 that takes a few years but the potential is there). I might have found what you misunderstood--we have to pay more than amazon and walmart, or it's as you said. They tend to be more cutthroat and demanding, but have superior benefits.
 
Well one problem is the huge baby boomer generation is retiring in huge numbers. I will soon join that list.
 
The authority on this is supposed to be the federal reserve bank, and they publish this stuff on their FRED database website.

According to them, the labor participation rate has dropped from 63.4 to 62.1% https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART. It comes from what is known as the household survey - they call various households across the country.

Also according to them the total civilian workforce has returned to pre covid levels. It comes from the "establishment survey" https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PAYEMS

So different surveys. Choose which one you want to believe.
Here's a quick question. Has anyone on this board ever received one of these survey calls?
I know I never have.
 
Back
Top Bottom