Friction modifiers question

[FrankN4]

Gary
In my owners manual it says to use a 5w30, or a 5w30 synthetic in extreme weather. Since GM says 30 grade(cSt 10 rounded off) I assumed GM was saying that was what was necessary to protect the engine. If the engine were not at risk at 8 or 5, I would think GM would consider 5W-20 or 0W-20.

The owners manual also says that towing a trailer means changes in DURABILITY and fuel economy. Durability! They actually said durability(section 452)



"That is, just because the 30 grade that they spec is between 9.30-12.49 Cst @ 100C/212F, how do you know that your engine is at risk at 8 Cst or even 5Cst? How do you know that these conditions are not buffered into the spec? If I read my manuals correctly (always suspect) the only recommendation is to shorten the OCI".

I have no way of knowing what is or is not buffered into GM oil recommendations. It is the fact that I do not know that concerns me. Also, the fact that doing something that obviously will lower the oil viscosity causes the owners manual to warn of durability, well, I have to take that seriously.


"Just out of curiosity, do you think that 212F is some terminal oil temp designed/spec'd into engines? It's a good marker for normal ..but..most fail that aren't forced cooled (with an oil:coolant exchanger) if they're at high output (for some 70mph is high enough output). Without forced cooling or auxiliary cooling, I think you're around or above 224F just towing anything at any speed."

Why 40C and 100C were chosen to report the cSt, I do not know. That gives me something else to research. If GM says 10, (rounded off), at 212F means 8.5, (rounded off), at 230 and that is just fine, they certainly don't give a clue of such. But if I have an oil that gives virtually the same 0F cSt as a 5w30, yet has a 230F cSt of 11.4(still a 30) and a 245F cSt of 10(still a 30) I am very interested in that oil. Especially since it has a ZDDP of 1000 and is still SM. I found another oil that has many of the same qualities and has a 1300 ZDDP, but no FM. Now I want to know much about FM.


Tempest
Thank you again sir for your patience. Thank you also for that little blurb that cleared up the difference between AW and EP. I think I have it now and no more long, ignorant FM questions.

When I was talking about pumping, I was saying that a 30 grade would pump easier than a 40 grade.

Thank you again and thank everyone

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
But if I have an oil that gives virtually the same 0F cSt as a 5w30, yet has a 230F cSt of 11.4(still a 30) and a 245F cSt of 10(still a 30) I am very interested in that oil.


..and so would every major oil company and tribologist in the industry, I suspect. I can't get anything to stay in 30 range ..but maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Here ..play with this. The blended visc calculator Even at the very top of the 30 range, 245F is reduced to 8.7.

 

[FrankN4]

I can't sleep. Hopefully I can type.

"But if I have an oil that gives virtually the same 0F cSt AS A 5w30......"

I didn't say it was a 5w30. I said it had virtually the same 0F cSt viscosity as a 5w30 and holds in grade of a 30 up to 245F.

The actual oil, brand and grade, that GM recommends, not mandates, for my truck has a 0F cSt of 2173, a 212F cSt of 11.3, and drops to 10 cSt at 222F. One of the oils that interests me extremely much has a 0F cSt of 2228, a 212F cSt of 14, a 230F cSt of 11.5, a 240F cst of 10.4, and drops to 10 cSt at 245F.(I use the two calculators that are on Widman's site) This oil is SM and has FM. The other is a diesel oil, has close cSt viscosities through the temperature ranges,(the only real difference is the 2200 class cSt was at 6F rather than 0F) and maintains a 10 cSt up to 249F. It has higher ZDDP but no FM. This really perked my interest in the true value of FM. Should I go with higher ZDDP and no FM or lower ZDDP and FM. I also look at noack, TBN, VI, sulfated ash, and HTHS.

I now have a working knowledge of FM, AW, and EP. Nothing more, just a working knowledge to guide me in my selection of motor oils for the now 7 road vehicles and 2 tractors that are my responsibility.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I didn't say it was a 5w30. I said it had virtually the same 0F cSt viscosity as a 5w30 and holds in grade of a 30 up to 245F.


So ...in your second guessing of GM ...you're going to throw the 5w30 grade out the window ..because you figured that they really meant for you to pull a magic oil out of your behind that would stay @ 10Cst throughout your range of usage. That your usage is unique ..and that they didn't account for it?

Quote:
Gary
In my owners manual it says to use a 5w30, or a 5w30 synthetic in extreme weather. Since GM says 30 grade


You want a 5w-40 or 10w-40 ..or 15w40 synthetic. If you want to keep it a 30 weight, load your truck up or tow all the time. Keep throw away ballast on board because you have a floor of 224F and a ceiling of 253F (+/-)

So ..there you have it.

 

[FrankN4]

Gary....Woah I am completely, and I do mean completely confused by the attitude. I am just trying to find the best oil I can buy over the counter without having to go to a custom blender.

Thanks for the calculator. That is very informative and I might say very useful. I need to learn more about blending.

Do I believe that GM has burned the midnight oil and determined that this is the best possible oil for my vehicle, no matter what the circumstnces or conditions? NO, I do not. I doubt that there are more than a few people that believe that. I believe that GM, or Ford or Chrysler for that matter, has worked out what they believe to be the best compramise oil considering engine protection, fuel economy, cat converter, whatever else, and an expected life for the vehicle, the whole vehicle not just the engine.

I believe, correct or incorrect, and I would have to be proven incorrect, that GM and many others, though certainly not all manufacturers, are trying to go to a one size fits all for their non commercial vehicles. They are like the "house" with the odds greatly in their favor. They are able to meet the corporate average fuel economy standards and other standards and requirements. That is a good house bet. They give a 5 year, 100,000 mile warranty. That is a good house bet. Most people will not go 100,000 miles in 5 years. If they do, it is still a good house bet. You would have to use something terrible for oil and rarely change the oil to not make 100,000 miles because of an oil problem.

The engine design is, of course, in their favor. They use a relatively large displacement(torque) low RPM, sort of lazy engine. It doesn't work all that hard. That is a good house bet. They use 4, 5, and even 6 speed automatic transmissions. This reduces the opportunity for a driver to lug or overload the engine. That is a good house bet, a great bet. (actually the transmission is likely to go before the engine according to my dealer)

The market flavor is in their favor. Again, this year, a pickup truck is the number one selling vehicle. 5 of the top 10 sellers are trucks of some sort. Most of these trucks sold by whatever manufacturer will never have anything heavier than groceies in the bed. They will get bed rails, or more likely bed covers of some kind, all dolled up. The beds will never get dirty or scratched. My brother in law bought a Chevrolet pickup truck: $62,475.00. My nephew bought a Corvette just last week: $51,600. The pickup truck is now the personal vehicle of choice. Folk use a pickup in place of a 4 cyl compact. That is a really good house bet.

There will be a small percentage of pickups that will have a bed camper, or tow a camper, or tow a boat, or whatever. If the oil gets hot, thins out, there is going to be elevated wear. But, failure is highly unlikely, it is still going to make 100,000 miles or five years, but with a well "used" engine. In the rare instances where there is failure, well, the house does have to pay out sometimes. According to what I have read on this site and on links directed by this site, most engine failures are not oil releated, certainly not oil caused. I have also read, and believe, that most vehicles just, as it were, fall apart around a running engine. That is a very good house bet.

Overall, things are good for both GM or whoever, and the new vehicle consumer. All the odds are in favor, well in favor of the house, well in favor of reaching the 5 year or 100,000 mile mark. Beyond that, all bets are off, the house is no longer in the game. Most people could care less about beyond 5 years or 100,000 miles.

Then, there are people like me.(yeah....I know but whaddya gonna do) In my garage is a 2008 pickup with 456 miles. I will change the oil, filter, and rear axle lube at either 500 or 1000 miles, I havn't decided. I will change it all again at 3000 miles then every 3000-3500 miles thereafter for the oil and filter and the rear axle lube with the ATF. I am not sure when I will change the transmission fluid and filter but after the first change it will go on a 25,000 mile or one year regular change. I expect 200,000 minimum miles if I live that long. But the last 100,000 are all on me, the house is out of the game. Also, the last 100,000 are dependant upon the first 100,000!

I take care of everything that I have the best way I know how. I came here to get even more knowledge so I can do a beter job of taking care of my vehicles and those that I am responsible for. I have never needed warranty attention on an engine other than obvious defects in the first few days of ownership.(head cracked at manifold bolt....oil pump drive shaft broke on the way home from the dealer on their factory fill) I have used only a synthetic 15W-50 in all my vehicles and those that I am rsponsible for since 1990. This goes from dual overhead cam 4 cyl like my daughters's Mitsibushi to big lazy V8's. Vehicles well over 200,000 miles and no problems. I think I am doing something correct. BUT, maybe I could do even better.

Tempest said I could get 200,000 with about any oil. I highly respect his opinion and believe any 5w30 oil that is approved/certified by GM for 6094/4718M, and probably many that are not certified, will then give me a 200,000 mile engine life. I guess I should be comfortable with that, but I am not. I am not comfortable knowing that every mile I drive, I have a compramise protecting my engine and keping me off the side of the road. I have a compramise when I could have a situation/condition specific oil.

 

[Tempest]

Just buy Pennzoil Platinum 10W30 and be happy. Maybe run the 5W30 in the winter if it gets cold (not a problem where I am).

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Just buy Pennzoil Platinum 10W30 and be happy. Maybe run the 5W30 in the winter if it gets cold (not a problem where I am).


I agree with Tempest and if you're worried about the 30 weight being too thin you could always add a qt of (PP)5w50 which I have seen at Pepboys.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Gary....Woah I am completely, and I do mean completely confused by the attitude. I am just trying to find the best oil I can buy over the counter without having to go to a custom blender.


Frank - you're spending a whole lot of time to just go get an off the shelf (or other readily available) oil. The farm isn't on the table here. The family fortune isn't in the balance. In the time you've pondered this (and don't get me wrong- learning is always a good thing), you could have been on to halfway through your first OCI and a used oil analysis to see where you need to tweak something. (yes, I'm joking).

Look back at that post that I reacted to. (and I AM LONG WINDED) you danced some tune about GM spec'ing a 5w30 ..then you spelled out requirements that could not possibly be met by a 30 grade ..yet you just simply could have said (and YES, I'm being sarcastic here) "Well, I don't think those bozo's know what they're doing in my case, so I'm moving to a 0w-40 to get the best of what I feel I need. What do you think is the best and why?".

Oil is not ordered at a buffet. You can't always get what you want. You appeared to, in the same post, support GM in their decision of choosing 5w30 for valid reasons ..with good cause (well, you appeared to reason much from that specification - a bit extended on implied intent, if you ask me) ..the do every thing you could to make it impossible to follow it.

If you really "want what you want", you need to get a 5w or 10w30 and employ forced circulation cooling via a heat exchanger. If your cooling system is up to the task, you will have stable oil temps in all usage. If you want to do more for your vehicles, install block warmers to eliminate all fuel enrichment.