Friction modifiers question

[FrankN4]

I am still not really clear on friction modifiers. What would be the result if you were to run a new 2008 engine with an oil that did NOT have friction modifiers.

I have had some answers that said friction modifiers were additives that made the oil easier to pump. I have had answers that said friction modifiers made the metal parts of the engine more slippery and thus reduce the need for anti wear additives such as zddp.

Just what do friction modifiers do and do you really need them?

Thanks

 

[Tempest]

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1110710

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1109801

 

[MolaKule]

FM's and AW's in general

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/friction-reducers-and-aw-additives.57845/

 

[mechtech2]

Where can you get oil without additives? Not possible.

The friction modifiers come in to play at extreme stress, when there is a loss of the oil boundary and metal to metal contact is possible.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
MolaKule has covered the lubricant aspect of your query

Engine technologies have also reduced component friction factors and some of these are reduced VS pressures, thinner ring widths and bearing/chain/sprocket designs, coatings etc just for starters. All engine families have great variances in these areas - there are many design factors at play

 

[MolaKule]

Also, some AW additives can act as friction modifiers.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/additives-vii-anti-wear-aw-ep-fms.41168/

In many engines, not only has the ring width been reduced, but ring tension has also been reduced.

 

[02zx9r]

good reads, thanks

 

[FrankN4]

I GOT IT!!! I ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND!!!! Thanks Tempest and MolaKule.

Now, all I have to do is find a friction modified oil with a 40 cst of 65-70, a 100 cst of 11.5-11.9, a HT/HS of at least 3.5, viscosity index of 180 or better, zddp of 1200, noack of 6 or less, TBN of 12 or bettter, and a pour point of -45 or better. I guess that is going to be either a friction modified diesel oil(I know that many diesel oils are not friction modified) or a Eurpoean speck oil.

If anyone knows of such an oil, please let me know.

Thank you all. This forum is fantastic.

 

[JAG]

I can't think of any oil meeting those requirements. It may not even be possible. But there are some oils that come close in some ways. Here are a few.
Mobil 1 10w30 High Mileage
German Castrol 0W-30
Some Amsoil oils
Valvoline Maxlife Synthetic 5w30 and 10w30

 

[FrankN4]

I went to the Castrol web and looked at the given specks for the German 0w30 and 5W-40. They did not give the Viscosity Index, Noack Volatility, Total Base Number, and HTHS. I don't know why they did not give those specks but it seems a little suspicious that they would leave all 4 of them out. Castrol used to be my favorite oil. It is all I used for years but it seems they are no where the oil they used to be.

 

[MolaKule]

Remember the three stages of lubrication protection (in simple terms):

1. Fluid film - elastohydrodynamic lubrication - friction reduction and cooling by the lubricating film; components float on a thin film or wedge of oil.

2. friction modification - in this case it is friction reduction; provides some minor AW protection as well.

3. AW/EP for boundary lubrication when the fluid film is ruptured.

 

[boxcartommie22]

redline,motul and torco come very close if not exceed those mentioned

 

[FrankN4]

Fascinating

If I look at a VOA printout, where do I see or what do I see that would make me say "aha....friction modifiers?"

 

[bruce381]

moly, boron other stuff used is organic no metals to see.
bruce

 

[bruce381]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Remember the three stages of lubrication protection (in simple terms):

1. Fluid film - elastohydrodynamic lubrication - friction reduction and cooling by the lubricating film; components float on a thin film or wedge of oil.

2. friction modification - in this case it is friction reduction; provides some minor AW protection as well.

3. AW/EP for boundary lubrication when the fluid film is ruptured.



I would put EHL as a 4th since it is not "liquid" film but solid film
bruce

 

[bruce381]

Originally Posted By: FrankN4
I GOT IT!!! I ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND!!!! Thanks Tempest and MolaKule.

Now, all I have to do is find a friction modified oil with a 40 cst of 65-70, a 100 cst of 11.5-11.9, a HT/HS of at least 3.5, viscosity index of 180 or better, zddp of 1200, noack of 6 or less, TBN of 12 or bettter, and a pour point of -45 or better. I guess that is going to be either a friction modified diesel oil(I know that many diesel oils are not friction modified) or a Eurpoean speck oil.

If anyone knows of such an oil, please let me know.

Thank you all. This forum is fantastic.



Look at a full on syn HDEO or "diesel" 10/30 that should get close to NOACK, TBN and HTHS vis,
I think is doable but have to crunch the numbers.
bruce

 

[bruce381]

actually looks like a HDEO PAO 5w30 will work.

API CI-4/SL

VI 196
Vis @40 59.0
Vis @100 11.5
TBN 12.0-13.0
HTHS >3.5
NOACK PP< -45

bruce

 

[JAG]

Bruce, is that made with Ketjenlube?

 

[bruce381]

NO

 

[Gary Allan]

This is pretty close to that

AMSOIL Series 3000 Synthetic 5w30 Heavy-Duty Diesel Oil (HDD)

100°C, cSt 11.4

40°C, cSt 64.6

Viscosity Index 174
Noack 6.9
HTHS 3.5
Pour Point °C (°F) -50 (-58)
Flash Point °C (°F) 228 (442)
Total Base Number 12.2