Friction modifiers question

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: bruce381
actually looks like a HDEO PAO 5w30 will work.

API CI-4/SL

VI 196
Vis @40 59.0
Vis @100 11.5
TBN 12.0-13.0
HTHS >3.5
NOACK PP< -45

bruce
Nice numbers, especially the 100C vis. What is this Amsoil?

 

[FrankN4]

Gary

The Amsoil HDD 5w30 was the first oil I noticed and I thought I had found exactly what I wanted, but it does not have friction modifiers.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: bruce381
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Remember the three stages of lubrication protection (in simple terms):

1. Fluid film - elastohydrodynamic lubrication - friction reduction and cooling by the lubricating film; components float on a thin film or wedge of oil.

2. friction modification - in this case it is friction reduction; provides some minor AW protection as well.

3. AW/EP for boundary lubrication when the fluid film is ruptured.



I would put EHL as a 4th since it is not "liquid" film but solid film
bruce

Bruce, is that not the same as #1? My understanding is that plastic films are only formed under boundary conditions between 2 asperities near contact.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Originally Posted By: bruce381
actually looks like a HDEO PAO 5w30 will work.

API CI-4/SL

VI 196
Vis @40 59.0
Vis @100 11.5
TBN 12.0-13.0
HTHS >3.5
NOACK PP< -45

bruce
Nice numbers, especially the 100C vis. What is this Amsoil?


That's probably what his blending software puked out after he "crunched the numbers".

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: bruce381
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Remember the three stages of lubrication protection (in simple terms):

1. Fluid film - elastohydrodynamic lubrication - friction reduction and cooling by the lubricating film; components float on a thin film or wedge of oil.

2. friction modification - in this case it is friction reduction; provides some minor AW protection as well.

3. AW/EP for boundary lubrication when the fluid film is ruptured.



I would put EHL as a 4th since it is not "liquid" film but solid film
bruce

Bruce, is that not the same as #1? My understanding is that plastic films are only formed under boundary conditions between 2 asperities near contact.

Well, I'll shamefully admit that I don't know if it has FM or not (where did you find out?) ..but if it doesn't fit the bill ..I don't know where you're going to find too many 5W-30 with all the other specs in an HDEO. ..or rather another 5w30 that meets the HDEO elements that you require/seek.

 

[4wheels]

Originally Posted By: FrankN4
Gary

The Amsoil HDD 5w30 was the first oil I noticed and I thought I had found exactly what I wanted, but it does not have friction modifiers.



I'm curious where you found out that HDD doesn't have any FM. That seems rather strange since Amsoil advertises this oil is also for "all gas engines" and "provides superior wear protection and fuel economy"... seems it would take some FM's to make those claims.

Also, did anyone notice in one of the Amsoil flyers they describe the HDD as having the "most robust additive package" of all their oils.

 

[FrankN4]

I called Amsoil tech services at 1-715-399-8324 and spoke with a tech service rep. He told me that Amsoil diesel HDD did not have friction modifiers.

 

[Gary Allan]

I'm wondering why he/she told you. They usually don't confirm or deny the presence of any component of their fundamental formulation.

 

[bruce381]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: bruce381
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Remember the three stages of lubrication protection (in simple terms):

1. Fluid film - elastohydrodynamic lubrication - friction reduction and cooling by the lubricating film; components float on a thin film or wedge of oil.

2. friction modification - in this case it is friction reduction; provides some minor AW protection as well.

3. AW/EP for boundary lubrication when the fluid film is ruptured.



I would put EHL as a 4th since it is not "liquid" film but solid film
bruce

Bruce, is that not the same as #1? My understanding is that plastic films are only formed under boundary conditions between 2 asperities near contact.

Kinda splittng Hairs EHD lubrication occurs mostly in gear teeth and roller bearing ans at the high loads the oil turns "solid" and to me is NOT that same as saying "oil film or oil wedge"

bruce

 

[bruce381]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Originally Posted By: bruce381
actually looks like a HDEO PAO 5w30 will work.

API CI-4/SL

VI 196
Vis @40 59.0
Vis @100 11.5
TBN 12.0-13.0
HTHS >3.5
NOACK PP< -45

bruce
Nice numbers, especially the 100C vis. What is this Amsoil?


That's probably what his blending software puked out after he "crunched the numbers".


Correct I was just showing that other than a Friction modifier you could meet Franks requirments I did not mean to infer this is a real product \
bruce

 

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted By: bruce381

Correct I was just showing that other than a Friction modifier you could meet Franks requirments I did not mean to infer this is a real product
bruce

Bruceblend HDEO?

-Dennis

 

[Gary Allan]

How much does a package like that run (software)? I imagine quite a bit.

 

[FrankN4]

Gary

It is Amsoil's willingness to talk to you that I think is actually a bigger asset than their spec sheets, advertisements, or product reviews. I called them about 4 years ago with a question about motorcycle oils. They talked to me about friction modifiers not being in motorcycle oil, ZDDP levels and what they mean to motorcycle engines, head heat around exhaust valves, and stuff. I switched from Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 to Amsoil 20W-50 motorcycle.

I called them about 3 years ago about gear lube,. Again they talked to me. I now have Amsoil 75W-110 in motorcycle shaft drive, pickup differential, and even Poulan 31cc weed eater.

Getting information from Mobil 1 is not near as easy. They did, however, brag that their CJ dash something 5W-40 diesel did have friction modifiers. I just don't like their 40C viscosity enough to be a reason to change from what I use now.

I wish I had asked the gentleman that I spoke with at Amsoil why their 5w30 HDD did not have friction modifiers. He steered me to the 10w30 ATM with a second choice of the 5W-40 European. He also told me that friction modifiers are "very good for my purposes." He also explained why the Noack of the 5W-40 was what I considered high and why the TBN was what I considered low.

Customer communication with Amsoil is in my opinion their greatest asset. I am going to guess that these folk have better things to do than sit around and talk with an old geezer that is hanging on to a tradition that may be past its prime. They never seemed to be in a hurry to get rid of me :^)

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: bruce381
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: bruce381
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Remember the three stages of lubrication protection (in simple terms):

1. Fluid film - elastohydrodynamic lubrication - friction reduction and cooling by the lubricating film; components float on a thin film or wedge of oil.

2. friction modification - in this case it is friction reduction; provides some minor AW protection as well.

3. AW/EP for boundary lubrication when the fluid film is ruptured.



I would put EHL as a 4th since it is not "liquid" film but solid film
bruce

Bruce, is that not the same as #1? My understanding is that plastic films are only formed under boundary conditions between 2 asperities near contact.

Kinda splittng Hairs EHD lubrication occurs mostly in gear teeth and roller bearing ans at the high loads the oil turns "solid" and to me is NOT that same as saying "oil film or oil wedge"

bruce

Ahhh I see. I (and maybe Molakule) was confusing normal hydrodynamic regimes with EHD.

Quote:
Engine bearings and the piston mostly operate in the "hydrodynamic lubrication" region, where a thick film separates the moving metal surfaces so that there is no chance of them coming into contact. When the pistons are momentarily stationary, however, the layer of oil covering them can be similar in thickness to the surface roughness of the components. In this "mixed lubrication" region, the metal surfaces intermittently come into direct contact. If the thickness of the oil film is much smaller than the surface roughness then the metal surfaces rub together repeatedly - this is known as "boundary lubrication". Contact between the cams and the tappets in the valve train span the mixed and boundary regions.

The final type of lubrication - elastohydrodynamic lubrication - occurs under high loads and is commonly encountered with hydrocarbon-based oils. Here the pressure developed in the lubricant is sufficiently high to elastically deform the metal surfaces either side of the oil film. This happens because the viscosity of these fluids increases significantly as the pressure rises. The valves and the piston rings occasionally operate in this region.

Lubricants are also used in other important components in a vehicle, including the gearbox. This is a challenging environment where pressures routinely exceed 109 Pa and the gears operate in the elastohydrodynamic-lubrication regime.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/5020

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Customer communication with Amsoil is in my opinion their greatest asset.


I surely won't argue with that point. I'm just surprised that you didn't get a "canned" answer.

 

[4wheels]

Originally Posted By: FrankN4
I called Amsoil tech services at 1-715-399-8324 and spoke with a tech service rep. He told me that Amsoil diesel HDD did not have friction modifiers.


Just FYI, I've given up on calling their tech support. The range of knowledge I've found there runs the gamut from nothing to pretty darned good. I had one guy tell me he couldn't answer my technical questions on trans fluids as it was "beyond their scope"...

Personally, I kinda doubt that HDD doesn't have any FM's in there at all (i.e. ZDDP falls into multiple categories & can count as an FM, then HDD contains FM since Amsoil advertises HDD as a "High ZDDP" content oil).

 

[JAG]

ZDDP could be called a friction increaser. It modifies friction but in the positive direction. Friction coefficient and anti-wear effects are independent of each other.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: JAG
ZDDP could be called a friction increaser. It modifies friction but in the positive direction. Friction coefficient and anti-wear effects are independent of each other.


Great, the warm and fuzzy feeling with the ACD is starting to fade... Thanks lol.

 

[FrankN4]

Originally Posted By: JAG
ZDDP could be called a friction increaser. It modifies friction but in the positive direction. Friction coefficient and anti-wear effects are independent of each other.


That just went over my head! What exactly does that mean?

 

[Tempest]

ZDDP builds films on the surface of the metal to prevent wear. These films can actually increase the amount of friction, even though they help to protect the metal.