Fram XG7317 vs XG3593A

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Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by gamefoo21
I just wasn't sure if the VTEC system was overly fussy about the oil filter. I know certain makes have issues with oil pumps that are sized just barely large enough to support the base engine/equipment. Add to much extra system volume and the pump can't flow enough.


Positive displacement oil pumps don't care how small or big the oil filter is.


Physics doesn't work like that. The pump is still limited to the amount it can flow per rpm in simple volume. If the pump simply can't move enough oil, you run into problems.

VW had to spin up an update for the oil pump on the 06B block engines. The stock pumps would wear a little, and if you had say an oil cooler, the engine would starve for oil at lower RPMs.

Just because a positive displacement pump will move say 5ccs of at 1 rpm at 100psi or what ever the bypass setting is, doesn't mean anything if the system needs 7cc of flow for every revolution. This presents as oil starvation at bearing surfaces usually, where flow is directly tied to pressure.
 
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Originally Posted by gamefoo21
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by gamefoo21
I just wasn't sure if the VTEC system was overly fussy about the oil filter. I know certain makes have issues with oil pumps that are sized just barely large enough to support the base engine/equipment. Add to much extra system volume and the pump can't flow enough.

Positive displacement oil pumps don't care how small or big the oil filter is.

Physics doesn't work like that. The pump is still limited to the amount it can flow per rpm in simple volume. If the pump simply can't move enough oil, you run into problems.

VW had to spin up an update for the oil pump on the 06B block engines. The stock pumps would wear a little, and if you had say an oil cooler, the engine would starve for oil at lower RPMs.

Just because a positive displacement pump will move say 5ccs of at 1 rpm at 100psi or what ever the bypass setting is, doesn't mean anything if the system needs 7cc of flow for every revolution. This presents as oil starvation at bearing surfaces usually, where flow is directly tied to pressure.


Read my reply again - physics of a positive displacement oil pump does work that way. A positive oil pump doesn't care how big an oil filter is. You're talking about sizing a PD oil pump to an engine's oiling circuit, which has no bearing on what I said about the size of the oil filter and the oil pump. If an oil pump is undersized, it's undersized for the specific engine's oiling system, and the size of the filter isn't going to change that fact.

If a PD pump puts out 5 GPM at 4000 RPM that goes through the filter and feeds the oiling system, then it's still going to put out 5 GPM at 4000 RPM and feed the oiling system the same regardless of how big the full flow oil filter is.

You make it sound like you believe a bigger oil filter is going to "starve" the engine of oil flow ... it's not. How could it if the same flow goes in and comes out of the filter.
 
The way I look at it is that the bigger the filter the more of a pressure damper, and it can possibly cause pumping losses in the oiling system.

Once the filter is pressurized, what goes in, goes out. There are pumping losses from going to a bigger filter, even oil has friction. I did make a mistake that the oil in the filter doesn't have to be completely moved out before new oil can come out. It does act like a flow damper on the system, the bigger the filter the slower the reaction to increases and decreases in pressure.

Most oil pumps are way overbuilt to put up with wear. Some *cough* GM *cough* tend to wear out and when hot you suffer a complete loss in oil pressure at idle/low rpms. Older ones you can hear the engine start clanking, newer ones cut the ignition assuming the system works or it just pops a low oil pressure warning.

That's an example of a PD pump that can't deliver enough flow considering the volume of space it needs to ram oil into.
 
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Originally Posted by gamefoo21
The way I look at it is that the bigger the filter the more of a pressure damper, and it can possibly cause pumping losses in the oiling system.

Once the filter is pressurized, what goes in, goes out. There are pumping losses from going to a bigger filter, even oil has friction. I did make a mistake that the oil in the filter doesn't have to be completely moved out before new oil can come out. It does act like a flow damper on the system, the bigger the filter the slower the reaction to increases and decreases in pressure.


Maybe if the oil filter was the size of a coffee can and had a thin can that bowed in/out extremely due to pump pulsations - assuming the pump has bad pulsations.

There is less pressure loss (less delta-p) in a larger oil filter. Oiling systems are 15 to 20 times more flow restrictive than most oil filtets. I'll bet if you put the smallest vs largest filter possible on your car, and measure oil pressure and oil pressure build-up vs RPM increase, that you won't see any real difference.

Originally Posted by gamefoo21
Most oil pumps are way overbuilt to put up with wear. Some *cough* GM *cough* tend to wear out and when hot you suffer a complete loss in oil pressure at idle/low rpms. Older ones you can hear the engine start clanking, newer ones cut the ignition assuming the system works or it just pops a low oil pressure warning.

That's an example of a PD pump that can't deliver enough flow considering the volume of space it needs to ram oil into.


That's an example of mis-sized, worn or just plain inefficient oil pumps. Has nothing to do with the size of the oil filter.
 
Ahh it's kinda the same thing but...

Either way, one of the reasons I actually made this thread, was to see if anyone on here has had problems. I don't necessarily have problems with the 3593A instead of the 7317.

What does happen though is that the VTEC engagement very affected on my car by the filter. The 7317, you get that kick in the butt, with the 3593A, it smooths out the transition, so it's almost imperceptible. Still works, and pulls like it's supposed to but it was why I was over thinking this.
 
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Originally Posted by gamefoo21
Ahh it's kinda the same thing but...

Either way, one of the reasons I actually made this thread, was to see if anyone on here has had problems. I don't necessarily have problems with the 3593A instead of the 7317.

What does happen though is that the VTEC engagement very affected on my car by the filter. The 7317, you get that kick in the butt, with the 3593A, it smooths out the transition, so it's almost imperceptible. Still works, and pulls like it's supposed to but it was why I was over thinking this.


Oil is incompressable at oiling system pump pressures, so if you think there is any "dampening" from the filter then it's the can flexing slightly. Maybe you need a racing filter that has a very thick can. Fram has a racing filter that's pretty good.

As far as size, I'd just stick with the 7317 sized filter as it will flow more than your pump can put out, unless you have some super insane high flow aftermarket oil pump installed.
 
Originally Posted by gamefoo21
... What does happen though is that the VTEC engagement very affected on my car by the filter. The 7317, you get that kick in the butt, with the 3593A, it smooths out the transition, so it's almost imperceptible. ...
I can't see how that's possible, unless the filter is defective or plugged. How many times did that happen? Maybe there was another cause.
 
Originally Posted by CR94
Originally Posted by gamefoo21
... What does happen though is that the VTEC engagement very affected on my car by the filter. The 7317, you get that kick in the butt, with the 3593A, it smooths out the transition, so it's almost imperceptible. ...
I can't see how that's possible, unless the filter is defective or plugged. How many times did that happen? Maybe there was another cause.


In order to reduce oil flow to the engine, the oil pump would have to be hitting pressure relief. Hard for that to happen with hot oil unless the filter is super clogged, or the oil pump is putting out some insane output, like 15+ GPM while running a thick viscosity oil.
 
Originally Posted by gamefoo21
Ahh it's kinda the same thing but...

Either way, one of the reasons I actually made this thread, was to see if anyone on here has had problems. I don't necessarily have problems with the 3593A instead of the 7317.

What does happen though is that the VTEC engagement very affected on my car by the filter. The 7317, you get that kick in the butt, with the 3593A, it smooths out the transition, so it's almost imperceptible. Still works, and pulls like it's supposed to but it was why I was over thinking this.


Placebo? I notice zero difference, not one iota, in how/when VTEC engages no matter which filter I use, even the PH3895 which is about 75% larger.

I don't even notice a change when running thicker oils like a 15w40, which would yield a far greater change in flow / pressure than using a bit smaller or larger oil filter.
 
The only solenoid or oil control part I haven't replaced on that K20 is the the one on the back of the engine that is supposed to actually control the VTEC activation. But it doesn't throw any codes, and I wind the engine up to 7000rpm every so often.

Or the oil pump is weak...



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Originally Posted by 92saturnsl2
I don't even notice a change when running thicker oils like a 15w40, which would yield a far greater change in flow / pressure than using a bit smaller or larger oil filter.


Thicker oil won't change the flow. The pressure goes up because the positive displacement pump is forcing the same flow volume of thicker oil through the same system resistance.
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but the main bearings are the biggest restriction. The oil filter is many times the opening that the bearing clearance is. A bigger filter can last longer or have less pressure drop across it but it isn't the main restriction. We all know how a car with worn bearings has low oil pressure.
 
That's just part of the flow distribution - galleys, ports, jets, bypass, and all - the bearings being supply and demand (rate in at leak-off rate) … filter sees the major flow and why that internal bypass is there (different from the oil system bypass).
 
Originally Posted by 4WD
… filter sees the major flow and why that internal bypass is there (different from the oil system bypass).


Filter sees all the flow if it's a "full flow" filter.
 
Sort of apples to oranges since they changed engines in 02 with the "new" Integra, but when I had my ‘95 Integra with the B18B1, it specified the 3593A and I used it many times, but I did also use the 7317 a few times as it is the same size as the Honda OEM filters they used on those and had zero issues. They should be interchangeable in most if not all Honda engines.
 
Yeah seems the only difference is that the 7317 has a higher bypass valve rating if barely. The base plate holes on the 7317 do seem like they would be less restrictive.

It seems to be whichever is cheaper if you have room.
 
Of the 2 p/n's, the xx7317 will be cheaper at WM.

eBay should have decent prices on pack of 6 jobber style XG3593a's though. (No black grip, but same filter otherwise.)
 
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