Fram Ultra or Amsoil Ea next oil change.

[stchman]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: stchman
I say the same thing when people on here insist on using a filter that is 1" longer because of the "added oil capacity and additional filtering media" when in actuality the difference to the engine is negligible.

In some cases the extra inch would make install/remove filter easier. For the same cost and without proven negative with longer filter, why not use it ?


Let's just say your vehicle is still under warranty. You have engine trouble(unlikely but mechanical devices can and do fail even when properly maintained). The dealer is inspecting your vehicle and you have put on the WRONG filter. Even if the filter spec is the same (drainback, pressure, thread, etc.) the dealer could tell the manufacturer and the manufacturer could say "you installed the wrong filter, your fault". Sorry, but I am not going to take that risk because I "feel" that an extra inch of filtering media giving me a warm fuzzy. Now if your vehicle is out of warranty, do what you wish.

Trust me, the manufacturer knows what filter (even if it is from Fram, Purolator, Hastings, Champ, Amsoil, etc.) is supposed to go on a certain vehicle.

From the posts, it looks like the Fram Ultra and Amsoil Ea filter are both excellent products, so I'll flip a coin.

 

[FutureDoc]

Actually if they are spec-ed the same, then there is no grounds for the adjudicating party to say that it is "wrong". The filter met spec. Simple as that. It is (or should be) the entity or "dealer" to show the burden of proof that X caused damage. Just because a filter has a different capacity or color, if it meets the spec, then it should be fine.

If a "manufacturer" says you need to use the manufacturer's oil filter to keep the warranty, then you can demand for them to provide the item at no-cost to you. However, if the manufacturer specs something, then that is a different story... you have to use the spec but the brand is your choice.

 

[stchman]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Actually if they are spec-ed the same, then there is no grounds for the adjudicating party to say that it is "wrong". The filter met spec. Simple as that. It is (or should be) the entity or "dealer" to show the burden of proof that X caused damage. Just because a filter has a different capacity or color, if it meets the spec, then it should be fine.

If a "manufacturer" says you need to use the manufacturer's oil filter to keep the warranty, then you can demand for them to provide the item at no-cost to you. However, if the manufacturer specs something, then that is a different story... you have to use the spec but the brand is your choice.


I understand what you are saying, just that do you want to hire an attorney and try to make the automaker see it your way?

If Fram/Amsoil/AC Delco/etc. says for me to use a certain oil filter then that is what I will use. Not worth the risk for what will amount to a negligible improvement.

 

[mjoekingz28]

Originally Posted By: Dallas69
No oil filter is engineered to run with a certain oil brand.
But I got a good laugh.



You never know!

The Ultra is "engineered for synthetic oil"

The M1 is "up to 15,000 miles of guaranteed protection when combined with fully synthetic motor oils"


So, apparently some filter can distinguish between dino and syn. Apparently oil analyses cannot. So, if a filter can tell between syns and dinos, what would stop it from 'knowing' brand A from brand B?

 

[Bigdaddyeasy]

Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
No oil filter is engineered to run with a certain oil brand.
But I got a good laugh.



You never know!

The Ultra is "engineered for synthetic oil"

The M1 is "up to 15,000 miles of guaranteed protection when combined with fully synthetic motor oils"


So, apparently some filter can distinguish between dino and syn. Apparently oil analyses cannot. So, if a filter can tell between syns and dinos, what would stop it from 'knowing' brand A from brand B?


Smart filter?

 

[bbhero]

My Fram Ultra label turns from the gold color label to a greenish tint to it if I run conventional oil in it

 

[dnewton3]

Seems like this topic will never die ....


Most of you just do not understand how the warranty system works, or (in particular) the Magnuson/Moss Warranty Act. Check the FTC website; that's the very first place you need to start in understanding this topic.


Generally, as long as you comply with warranty conditions and have reasonable proof of doing so, then the warranty would be in effect and the burden of responsibility is upon the product maker.

HOWEVER ....

As soon as you venture off the reservation, making your own selections against or in converse of the product maker, then it is YOU who bears the burden of proof when it comes to product fitment! If you choose to run a non-approved, non-recommended filter on your equipment, then the filter maker has every right to be able to deny or at least delay your claim! The are NOT legally responsible for products used inappropriately, and they are the ones who have the ability to set their warranty conditions. You are not entitled to set the conditions you want for their product and warranty. You are welcome to do what you want to do, but that does not, in any way, oblige them to cover your butt. Should you choose to not comply with the product maker applications, then it is you who must prove (either in court or arbitration) that your selection was just and sound. Good luck with that. How well do you think it will be received by the judge/jury when you go against their team of lawyers, their engineering staff, their mounds of data, and all you have is a printed page from your BITOG buddies encouraging you to use a "bigger" filter because "bigger is better, man ..."


I completely agree that upsizing a filter (which otherwise has common specs and characteristics for flow, efficiency, pressure, etc) is not likely to hurt you engine; I get that. But there is risk, however remote, in that if the unthinkable does happen, you have very little (if any) hope of forcing the filter maker to accept your warranty claim. They will deny it, or at the very least delay your claim for months or years, pending some form of legal action, all while you're down with no running engine. Good luck with that, sir or ma'am.

And for what gain? There is ZERO PROOF that anyone here has EVER put forth, that the slight "upsize" of a filter gives any REAL WORLD tangible benefit. I don't care about your theory; it's silly. Your theoretical gain in holding capacity or cooling effect is just plain stupid, and I don't mind being the one to call you out on it. I don't accept that "consolidating" your garage filter stock has any real benefit either; are you so hard up for space that you cannot house one more correct filter? Not for a second do I believe that.

There is nothing that anyone here has ever shown me that makes me believe (with credible real world application in mind) that a slightly larger filter makes a darn bit of difference. None, ever. Show me real world data that using a filter with 20% more capacity has any effect on your typical OCI plan, and your wear rates. I double dog dare you! I get your theory; I understand what you "think" it means. But I'm telling you all that there is no proof that substantiates your theory, and I'm taunting you (in a friendly manner) to put up or shut up!


The reward for using an upsized filter is only perceived, but the risk (however remote) to using a non-approved filter is very real.


Do as you see fit; I'll never take your freedom of choice away from you all. But don't you dare to try and offer this selection process as "logical" to upsize a filter; it's not at all. There is no proof that the reward is real, but the risk is real, despite it's rarity. What you want to do is fine by me, but don't tell others it's a good idea, because the real risk outweighs the imagined reward. Period.


Want to prove me wrong? What to change my mind? Fine - prove it!

Show me the true study that commands your position into one of superiority. Show me the SAE study, or other credible source, that incontrovertibly illuminates the facts as you see them. I have looked for years, in the SAE files, and using my own UOA data (over 10,000 UOAs in my database) and I see absolutely NOT ONE SHRED of proof.

PS - if you point to the infamous GM filter study, you are automatically barred from this conversation because it's clear to me that you have never read it, don't understand it, and not reasoned your way through it ...

 

[Dallas69]

They say use syn oil so you can go 15k,that's why.

 

[bbhero]

Dnewton3, a extremely well thought out and reasoned post. It is perfectly logical in its scope. I agree with the warranty part especially.
I just wonder though IF someone uses a larger filter with the EXACT same bypass specifications, thread size, and burst pressure than wouldn't a problem have happened with the smaller one too? Obviously if one uses a filter with different specifications than that's inviting serious trouble.
But either way... As you clearly stated that IF its not the OEM or equivalent filter than yes one is in error technically.

 

[stchman]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Seems like this topic will never die ....


Most of you just do not understand how the warranty system works, or (in particular) the Magnuson/Moss Warranty Act. Check the FTC website; that's the very first place you need to start in understanding this topic.


Generally, as long as you comply with warranty conditions and have reasonable proof of doing so, then the warranty would be in effect and the burden of responsibility is upon the product maker.

HOWEVER ....

As soon as you venture off the reservation, making your own selections against or in converse of the product maker, then it is YOU who bears the burden of proof when it comes to product fitment! If you choose to run a non-approved, non-recommended filter on your equipment, then the filter maker has every right to be able to deny or at least delay your claim! The are NOT legally responsible for products used inappropriately, and they are the ones who have the ability to set their warranty conditions. You are not entitled to set the conditions you want for their product and warranty. You are welcome to do what you want to do, but that does not, in any way, oblige them to cover your butt. Should you choose to not comply with the product maker applications, then it is you who must prove (either in court or arbitration) that your selection was just and sound. Good luck with that. How well do you think it will be received by the judge/jury when you go against their team of lawyers, their engineering staff, their mounds of data, and all you have is a printed page from your BITOG buddies encouraging you to use a "bigger" filter because "bigger is better, man ..."


I completely agree that upsizing a filter (which otherwise has common specs and characteristics for flow, efficiency, pressure, etc) is not likely to hurt you engine; I get that. But there is risk, however remote, in that if the unthinkable does happen, you have very little (if any) hope of forcing the filter maker to accept your warranty claim. They will deny it, or at the very least delay your claim for months or years, pending some form of legal action, all while you're down with no running engine. Good luck with that, sir or ma'am.

And for what gain? There is ZERO PROOF that anyone here has EVER put forth, that the slight "upsize" of a filter gives any REAL WORLD tangible benefit. I don't care about your theory; it's silly. Your theoretical gain in holding capacity or cooling effect is just plain stupid, and I don't mind being the one to call you out on it. I don't accept that "consolidating" your garage filter stock has any real benefit either; are you so hard up for space that you cannot house one more correct filter? Not for a second do I believe that.

There is nothing that anyone here has ever shown me that makes me believe (with credible real world application in mind) that a slightly larger filter makes a darn bit of difference. None, ever. Show me real world data that using a filter with 20% more capacity has any effect on your typical OCI plan, and your wear rates. I double dog dare you! I get your theory; I understand what you "think" it means. But I'm telling you all that there is no proof that substantiates your theory, and I'm taunting you (in a friendly manner) to put up or shut up!


The reward for using an upsized filter is only perceived, but the risk (however remote) to using a non-approved filter is very real.


Do as you see fit; I'll never take your freedom of choice away from you all. But don't you dare to try and offer this selection process as "logical" to upsize a filter; it's not at all. There is no proof that the reward is real, but the risk is real, despite it's rarity. What you want to do is fine by me, but don't tell others it's a good idea, because the real risk outweighs the imagined reward. Period.


Want to prove me wrong? What to change my mind? Fine - prove it!

Show me the true study that commands your position into one of superiority. Show me the SAE study, or other credible source, that incontrovertibly illuminates the facts as you see them. I have looked for years, in the SAE files, and using my own UOA data (over 10,000 UOAs in my database) and I see absolutely NOT ONE SHRED of proof.

PS - if you point to the infamous GM filter study, you are automatically barred from this conversation because it's clear to me that you have never read it, don't understand it, and not reasoned your way through it ...



But, but, but, but, that extra 1" longer filter will allow me to hold more oil and have greater filtering media. With the extra 1/8th of a quart, my engine will last for 12 zillion miles. It is also been proven that running a larger filter will make the paint job last longer and make your car stereo louder!!!!!!!

All kidding aside, I am in 100% agreement. Use the proper filter application for your automobile, deviation from that will result in YOU having to prove that your actions didn't result in the warranty claim. I've been saying this for a while and people still do what they want.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
No oil filter is engineered to run with a certain oil brand.
But I got a good laugh.

You never know!

The Ultra is "engineered for synthetic oil"

The M1 is "up to 15,000 miles of guaranteed protection when combined with fully synthetic motor oils"

So, apparently some filter can distinguish between dino and syn. Apparently oil analyses cannot. So, if a filter can tell between syns and dinos, what would stop it from 'knowing' brand A from brand B?


Wow. OK then.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
No oil filter is engineered to run with a certain oil brand.
But I got a good laugh.

You never know!

The Ultra is "engineered for synthetic oil"

The M1 is "up to 15,000 miles of guaranteed protection when combined with fully synthetic motor oils"

So, apparently some filter can distinguish between dino and syn. Apparently oil analyses cannot. So, if a filter can tell between syns and dinos, what would stop it from 'knowing' brand A from brand B?


Wow. OK then.


If a filter knew that much, what would prevent it from taking over mankind?

 

[k1rod]

Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
No oil filter is engineered to run with a certain oil brand.
But I got a good laugh.



You never know!

The Ultra is "engineered for synthetic oil"

The M1 is "up to 15,000 miles of guaranteed protection when combined with fully synthetic motor oils"


So, apparently some filter can distinguish between dino and syn. Apparently oil analyses cannot. So, if a filter can tell between syns and dinos, what would stop it from 'knowing' brand A from brand B?


You don't really think an oil filter can "tell" the difference between synthetic and conventional oil, do you??? Just as clarification, an oil filter "Engineered for Synthetic Oil" is designed for the extended OCI that synthetics can provide. Typically 15,000 miles plus. They will work absolutely just as well with any conventional oil. But that oil will have to be changed out at say 8000 miles. But then these more expensive, "engineered for synthetic oil" filters would not have been used to anywhere near their full potential and they would have been wasted.