Fram Ultra flow restrictive?

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Originally Posted By: WhizkidTN
Extra cost?? The FRAM Ultra can be had for less than $10 at Wal-Mart. My OCI is ~4K miles due to OEM recommendations for my Optima SX. I'm very cool with that price!
$5 online...
 
Lucky you … paid $5.59 for my XG10575’s so I need them to last 50k (two oil changes with Dollar General oil)
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
The person's question was if the Ultra flows well enough given the fine filtration.


Answer was yes, and data given to back it up. Even the old yellow PureOne flowed very well (despite years of internet false claims it was "restrictive") and Purolator claimed it was 99.9% @ 20 microns per ISO 4548-12.


I didn't say the answer wasn't given. Here are my unclipped sentences:

"The person's question was if the Ultra flows well enough given the fine filtration. Good question, have to rely on Fram saying it does."
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Originally Posted By: 4WD
Lucky you … paid $5.59 for my XG10575’s so I need them to last 50k (two oil changes with Dollar General oil)
Be sure to post the UOA so we can discuss.
 
HaHa … don’t think I could pull a sample …

Back in the real world … looks like the new 5.3L is only making 7K via first run on OLM …
(it’s barking now at 7% and Saturday forecast looks nice outside …)
 
Originally Posted By: goodtimes

"The person's question was if the Ultra flows well enough given the fine filtration. Good question, have to rely on Fram saying it does."
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Motorking gave the data ... it flows fine (link given earlier to the discussion).
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: goodtimes

"The person's question was if the Ultra flows well enough given the fine filtration. Good question, have to rely on Fram saying it does."
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Motorking gave the data ... it flows fine (link given earlier to the discussion).


I didn't say Motorking didn't give the data, and saw the link. Motorking reporting is Fram saying it. There is nothing else to read into my sentences or find fault with them.

"The person's question was if the Ultra flows well enough given the fine filtration. Good question, have to rely on Fram saying it does."
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I didnt' say you didn't say Motorking didn't give the answer.
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But the question has been answered by Fram as such, so why are you on a merry-go-round?
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Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I didnt' say you didn't say Motorking didn't give the answer.
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But the question has been answered by Fram as such, so why are you on a merry-go-round?
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There has to be a reason you outlined my words in red and said Motorking gave the data. Why do you want to repeat unless you tried to change what I said? Maybe you just forgot what you were talking about. I never was on your merry go round.
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How can someone change what you said when they can't figure out what you said? What did you actually say anyway?
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Here's the problem with this thread ... It's drive-by internet mania. I want to be clear; I am not singling out the OP; there's plenty of blame to go around here, and many of you ought to take note. I have no problem whatsoever with people asking questions, if they are intelligent and thoughtful; if they have data or logical construct theory to support an idea, etc.

If the OP had said ... "Hey BITOG, I was curious if the Fram Ultra restricts flow to a point where a concern would exist in my 2009 Family Truckster, which has a max oil flow pump rated at X.Y gpm, using 5w-ZZ when at full temp, at delta P pressure. I built a test fixture in my garage, using calibrated flow and pressure gages (insert photo proof here), and using those parameters, I got data that shows it's on the borderline. What could be causing this issue?" If that happened, I'd say that individual really put some thought and effort into the project, and it's worthy of bandwidth here; kudos for a concern well defined, and tested, then presented for discussion.


But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO .... that's not what happened. What he did is what most folks do here ....
He used less-than-rational thinking to suppose his way into a mythological condition where the efficiency rating somehow equates to media that's too darn tight, presumably choking the engine into a starved condition. No data given about what his engine pump produces. No data shown as to what the FU offers. Just total wild-posterior guessing based on a hapless theory. And if he's picking on the Ultra, why not the TG or the BOSS or EaO? Why just the Ultra? Why not any filter that is 99%? Why is 99% "too restrictive", but 98% isn't? Is 95% OK? Absolutely no reasoning at all.


The internet is full of folks who either cannot or will not first research their current condition, think about the potential influences, and then try to resolve questions with logic and proof to back it up.



I am not saying that all company data is 100% accurate all the time. I've worked for major manufacturing industries my entire adult life; I know mistakes happen. But unless we have credible proof that any product is not performing to an adequate level, it's all just swag rhetoric. To understand a filter's true flow capability, we must know the flow rating, at a specific dP, with a given vis fluid. NONE of the companies publish that to the best of my knowledge. The ISO testing protocol does establish operational parameters; I trust those to be adequate to give us a reasonable basis to accept the validity of a product. I don't worry about the minutia.

What I do know is that all the major filter makers produce a bazillion products every day that end up doing a good job, despite the lack of external public info. I've never had a reason to believe that any filter I choose is "too restrictive". But then again, I don't succumb to illogical process thinking. My point is that if the company which produces the product you find potential fault with does not publically publish data, then you must go get your own data, developed with credible methodology, to pose legitimate questions. In the absence of that, you're just a troll (unintentional or not), blasting your inane thoughts upon the innocent internet viewers.


IOW, in simple terms, if you want to post a question or statement here, that's cool. You have two choices:
1) research the conditions that would affect the product, understand the operational parameters the product offers, and then apply the two together and discuss results
2) wildly make unqualified assumptions, pontificating a potential problem, and then post no data or facts to support your accusation

I applaud the former.
I decry the later.


All persons are welcome to participate here. But we should not get mad if we get called out for irrational thoughts posted with reckless abandon. There're no rules here against posting thoughtless drivel, and there're no rules against calling it out, either.



Please don't be a drive-by poster, folks.
 
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The only data surrounding delta p is given with warm oil. I would like to know delta p across the FU media with different oil temperatures. How about -10, 0, 50, and 70 degrees Fahrenheit? In my mind this is valuable. I never jump in my car with 180 degree oil, and in cold conditions oil temps don't rise nearly as quick as coolant temps.
 
Sticking with previous analogies … screens have a particle “cut size” in microns … they plug - but indeed they mainly partially plug based on geometric relationships …plenty of them = good porosity and resultant permeability

Fram Ultra is a 3D web matrix of “angles and tangles” that trap particles ... Not just block them in one dimension

Back to the balls … let’s do porosity. Fill a room with basketballs … very good porosity and permeability …
Now start adding smaller and smaller balls in the mix … then some marbles … then some B.B.’s ... then coarser sand … then some soil … Pretty much done …

That’s just meant to help explain why filters can be “full flow” and still have a good “cut size” …
For long range ~ some do holding capacity with 3D filtration - and some with net square inches (a bigger room) …
Examples of both types:


 
Originally Posted By: iunderpressure
The only data surrounding delta p is given with warm oil. I would like to know delta p across the FU media with different oil temperatures. How about -10, 0, 50, and 70 degrees Fahrenheit? In my mind this is valuable. I never jump in my car with 180 degree oil, and in cold conditions oil temps don't rise nearly as quick as coolant temps.

Of course all oil filers will have more delta-p as the oil becomes colder and thicker. There have been a few graphs posted over the years showing relative delta-p of groups of different filters, but was hard to distinguish what brand/models were represented.

However, if you read the sticky thread by Jim Allen at the top of this forum, you'll see the filters he tested would just go into bypass if pushes hard with cold oil and high engine revs. I think almost any filter is going to be OK in terms of delta-p if the engine revs are kept low until the oil gets warmed up well, that's just a good practice.

Having even one data point of delta-p vs flow rate with hot oil is useful knowing what the general shape of a typical curve looks like - ie, the PureOne curve given earlier in this thread. If a filter can flow 10 GPM with hot oil and only have 4~5 PSI delta-p then it's pretty free flowing.
 
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