Fram titanium causing tap/knock on cold starts
- Thread starter 2000Trooper
- Start date
Mine's worse, lol.Quit lying Zee...
You know that's your handwriting right there.
dnewton3
Staff member
Zee is 100% correct regarding the failure of an ADBV. I would only add that it's a combo of the siphon effect of oil below of the filter and the pressure head of oil above the filter. And remember, the oil is "hot" (lets say 210F) upon shutdown and so it'll flow quite well. Doesn't take much for the oil to leave the higher galley(s) if the ADBV is faulty. The orientation of the filter really doesn't matter. If there is oil above it and below it, then the oil inside the filter is subject to the laws of physics in terms of hydraulic flow. And that drawing wasn't half bad.
It might not be an oil filter problem, but how fast the oil pump is pressurizing the system. Could be a disintegrating oil pump gasket that seals the pump to the engine block. This will cause the oil pump to lose it's seal with the engine block causing air to be introduced into the pump and causing less suction of the oil from the pan. Way to check is to pull the coil wire or pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine for about 5 to 10 seconds. Then, put the coil wire or fuel pump fuse back on, crank the engine. If there is no noise, that's the problem.
What about the oil filter adapter that is mounted low on the block, base up filter? Can this do the same? Some have a hollow bolt with orings separating the inlet and outlet lines. The oil filter stays full being base up, but can the entire line down to the pan drain, bypassing the filter? This also means, if true, base up filters do need an adbv. How else do the upper oil galleries stay full.
Oil filters mounted down low, base up, along the side of the oil pan don’t have as much level difference between the sump & filter. Older SBC filters don’t spec an ADBV at all for that reason, although the galleries can still drain back through the filter & pump. The advent of OHC engines, with long timing chains, thinner oil, chain tensioners, and non-base up filters have increased the drain back issues over engines of the “good old days”.
Iirc, the adbv sketches posted this thread were done by a member going by the moniker, Hokiefyd. Hasn't posted in quite a while, but always thought him to be a good one here.
Fwiw, any time I read about a 'start up rattle' (my preferred term for topic), first thought is always a compromised adbv. That goes for any filter/engine that specs an adbv in OF no matter filter orientation/location. Certainly, can be an exception here or there, but most likely cause. So, agreeing others, adbv most likely cause here. As for chances of compromised adbv, couldn't give a number, but it happens.
Fwiw, any time I read about a 'start up rattle' (my preferred term for topic), first thought is always a compromised adbv. That goes for any filter/engine that specs an adbv in OF no matter filter orientation/location. Certainly, can be an exception here or there, but most likely cause. So, agreeing others, adbv most likely cause here. As for chances of compromised adbv, couldn't give a number, but it happens.
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Gravity! Plus a siphoning effect, equals drainback.
It sure don’t take a minute to fill the filter. I’d suspect the problem has gotten worse or the filter efficiency is slowing flow to much.
Filter efficiency doesn't slow oil flow ... especially if the revs are low on a start-up. An oil filter is typically about 15 times more free flowing than the engine oiling system. The engine's oiling system is the big flow restricter, by far.
If the oil drains all the way down to the oil level in the pan, then the oil pump has to prime itself every time. If there is a leak at the oil pump or the oil filter adapter nothing is holding the oil from seeking the lowest level. Even with a perfect adbv.
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No, of course not, but it takes time for the engine to become fully enveloped again, and, if there are hydraulic components that have blend down, they now need to pump back up, and if there's a head of air, that can take a while to get the air out of those devices. This can make noise.
As @ZeeOSix noted, the engine is the most restrictive part of the oil circuit and filters have a media bypass in the event that media gets plugged or the pump is trying to move more volume than the media is able to flow at that moment, which typically is only with cold, thick oil. The pump is going to move the same volume of oil regardless of the filter's flow rate provided the pump is not on the relief.
I have been looking into oil filter adapters. Even my Toyota 3 rz engine has one. Lo and behold it has a base gasket and one or two o rings, which if any of these fail, the oil drains down through the oil pump. On restart the oil pump has to pump oil to itself first, then to the filter and on. That is a bad dry start situation. Adbv independent. Mine seems to be fine but there was a video of a guy taking his off and finding bad o rings. Ford, Jeep, and others use similar things. If I had timing chain rattle on start ups I would look at the oil filter adapter as a possibility. Never would have guessed anything could go wrong in an oil filter adapter, but a lot can go wrong.
Pictures also show some fairly small oil output holes in the adapters, smaller than one would guess. Forget about oil filter base plate hole sizes as being restrictive.
Pictures also show some fairly small oil output holes in the adapters, smaller than one would guess. Forget about oil filter base plate hole sizes as being restrictive.
