Take it all (pro and con) with a grain of salt--all I know from actual experience is that I've used them on many different cars over many years and in every case the engine was still running fine with tons of miles on it when the rest of the car began falling apart and it no longer made sense to keep fixing it. And I also know that many people have had similar experiences so even if Fram's are an inferior product it doesn't make any difference in the end. The bottom line is that it's much more important how often you change your oil and filter than what brands you use!
fram filters
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What I wrote was largely factual or questions, very little opinion. Read it again.
I responded to your post in 8 places. Please pick any 4 of them and tell me why they are only opinion and not factual or a question.
I don't think frams are quite as bad as everyone says. When I took one apart I actually had a pretty difficult time seperating the filter media from the cardboard ends. But the filter media of the extra guard (aka orange can of doom) is junk. It's been tested and found to filter not all that well and have really poor flow. Also the ADBV was poor at best, it just didn't seem to work. And the bypass valve seemed really cheap, it worked, but it was all plastic and yuck.
Theres several questions one may consider when using Frams.
1.Will they destroy an engine?
The answer is;No,they probably wont.
XS650:Neither would an empty filter can destroy an engine in a fast obvious way.
MGResp.:This is opinion,it would depend on the age and type of engine.
2.Are they made cheaper than the rest?
Maybe,maybe not.There is a new filter construction on the market that is similar to Fram.
While cardboard isnt used,there is a bonding used between two similar filter materials.
XS650:That's the old "look over there" argument.
Two sow's ears don't make a silk purse
MGResp.:You still have no proof that Frams media/construction is bad compared to others.You have thoughts on such but you have no data showing proof regarding either.
3.Does the amount of filter material in a filter mean anything?
Once again,this is a maybe maybe not.The type and quality of the material means more than the actual amount used.
A filter may have 200 sq.inches of type A filter media that is a basic filtering material.
Filter B may have 110 sq.inches of type B filter media that is a higher standard in filtering material.
You cant always go by the amount of media.
XS650:We consumers don't have much useful information on media. Lacking that information, it's logical to assume that a company that cuts corners in obvious ways cuts them in not obvious ways. Fram uses better quailty media??
MGResp.:What I you may consider cost cutting may not be what someone else does.
Some may think that the new Champ filters are made cheaply while others may not think so.
4.Are Frams overpriced?
Possibly,it seems that several think so.
5.Does the actual construction of Frams mean that they are a bad product?
Probably not,they seem to be constructed as well as some others.
XS650:The old "look over there argument again".
MGResp.:Once again,you have no real proof of such.
The cost of the construction of a filter is subjective.
The quality of the products used in construction may not be to the liking of some.
XS650:No disagreement there.
6.Have you or do you personaly know anyone that has had an engine damaged by Fram?
This is not a 'my friends gilrfriends uncles friends friend had a Fram blow up their engine' type question.
This is a first hand knowledge only question.
XS650:I don't personally know anyone who has died as reuslt of driving down the wrong side of the freeway either. I have read about a few and after some deep thought about the practice have choosen to not do it.
MGResp.:You are not answering the question that was asked.You are giving opinion and or thought on an entirely different subject that has nothing to do with a filter.
7.Are there better filters?
Yes but if one changes their oil with 3K OCI's,is a different filter needed?
XS650:No filter is needed if your standards are low enough. A more useful question would be "Are there worse major brand name filters?"
MGResp.:This is beating around the bush and not answering the real question.
Some may consider Champ a worse filter.It is opinion.
I used to use Fram,the car in question has around 162-164,000 miles with half or more of those miles using mostly Frams.
As far as I know,it still runs.
It has not had any major work done to my knowledge.
Frams may be junk but there has not been any real proof to show that they are.
We have heard peoples opinions but is there anyone on the baord that has any first hand knowledge and proof that Fram has damaged an engine?
If so,how many are there?
One or two can be said to be withing what is a normal failure rate just as any other filter.
As I said,I dont use Frams,I just wonder if they are as bad as some tend to say they are.
[ August 16, 2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: motorguy222 ]
1.Will they destroy an engine?
The answer is;No,they probably wont.
XS650:Neither would an empty filter can destroy an engine in a fast obvious way.
MGResp.:This is opinion,it would depend on the age and type of engine.
2.Are they made cheaper than the rest?
Maybe,maybe not.There is a new filter construction on the market that is similar to Fram.
While cardboard isnt used,there is a bonding used between two similar filter materials.
XS650:That's the old "look over there" argument.
Two sow's ears don't make a silk purse
MGResp.:You still have no proof that Frams media/construction is bad compared to others.You have thoughts on such but you have no data showing proof regarding either.
3.Does the amount of filter material in a filter mean anything?
Once again,this is a maybe maybe not.The type and quality of the material means more than the actual amount used.
A filter may have 200 sq.inches of type A filter media that is a basic filtering material.
Filter B may have 110 sq.inches of type B filter media that is a higher standard in filtering material.
You cant always go by the amount of media.
XS650:We consumers don't have much useful information on media. Lacking that information, it's logical to assume that a company that cuts corners in obvious ways cuts them in not obvious ways. Fram uses better quailty media??
MGResp.:What I you may consider cost cutting may not be what someone else does.
Some may think that the new Champ filters are made cheaply while others may not think so.
4.Are Frams overpriced?
Possibly,it seems that several think so.
5.Does the actual construction of Frams mean that they are a bad product?
Probably not,they seem to be constructed as well as some others.
XS650:The old "look over there argument again".
MGResp.:Once again,you have no real proof of such.
The cost of the construction of a filter is subjective.
The quality of the products used in construction may not be to the liking of some.
XS650:No disagreement there.
6.Have you or do you personaly know anyone that has had an engine damaged by Fram?
This is not a 'my friends gilrfriends uncles friends friend had a Fram blow up their engine' type question.
This is a first hand knowledge only question.
XS650:I don't personally know anyone who has died as reuslt of driving down the wrong side of the freeway either. I have read about a few and after some deep thought about the practice have choosen to not do it.
MGResp.:You are not answering the question that was asked.You are giving opinion and or thought on an entirely different subject that has nothing to do with a filter.
7.Are there better filters?
Yes but if one changes their oil with 3K OCI's,is a different filter needed?
XS650:No filter is needed if your standards are low enough. A more useful question would be "Are there worse major brand name filters?"
MGResp.:This is beating around the bush and not answering the real question.
Some may consider Champ a worse filter.It is opinion.
I used to use Fram,the car in question has around 162-164,000 miles with half or more of those miles using mostly Frams.
As far as I know,it still runs.
It has not had any major work done to my knowledge.
Frams may be junk but there has not been any real proof to show that they are.
We have heard peoples opinions but is there anyone on the baord that has any first hand knowledge and proof that Fram has damaged an engine?
If so,how many are there?
One or two can be said to be withing what is a normal failure rate just as any other filter.
As I said,I dont use Frams,I just wonder if they are as bad as some tend to say they are.
[ August 16, 2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: motorguy222 ]
I think Chris is onto something here, in my opinion fram manufactures a product using the most inexpensive materials they can and then tout's that product as being the finest product of it's kind available period..
If they would just market the filter for what it is and price it accordingly I wouldnt have a problem with them, I still wouldnt use them though...
Theres several questions one may consider when using Frams.
1.Will they destroy an engine?
The answer is;No,they probably wont.
2.Are they made cheaper than the rest?
Maybe,maybe not.There is a new filter construction on the market that is similar to Fram.
While cardboard isnt used,there is a bonding used between two similar filter materials.
3.Does the amount of filter material in a filter mean anything?
Once again,this is a maybe maybe not.The type and quality of the material means more than the actual amount used.
A filter may have 200 sq.inches of type A filter media that is a basic filtering material.
Filter B may have 110 sq.inches of type B filter media that is a higher standard in filtering material.
You cant always go by the amount of media.
4.Are Frams overpriced?
Possibly,it seems that several think so.
5.Does the actual construction of Frams mean that they are a bad product?
Probably not,they seem to be constructed as well as some others.
The quality of the products used in construction may not be to the liking of some.
6.Have you or do you personaly know anyone that has had an engine damaged by Fram?
This is not a 'my friends gilrfriends uncles friends friend had a Fram blow up their engine' type question.
This is a first hand knowledge only question.
7.Are there better filters?
Yes but if one changes their oil with 3K OCI's,is a different filter needed?
I have not used a Fram oil filter for a few years now but I used to use them a lot.
I dont know that they caused any problems.
What I dont like about Fram is the small oil inlet holes that the filters have.
1.Will they destroy an engine?
The answer is;No,they probably wont.
2.Are they made cheaper than the rest?
Maybe,maybe not.There is a new filter construction on the market that is similar to Fram.
While cardboard isnt used,there is a bonding used between two similar filter materials.
3.Does the amount of filter material in a filter mean anything?
Once again,this is a maybe maybe not.The type and quality of the material means more than the actual amount used.
A filter may have 200 sq.inches of type A filter media that is a basic filtering material.
Filter B may have 110 sq.inches of type B filter media that is a higher standard in filtering material.
You cant always go by the amount of media.
4.Are Frams overpriced?
Possibly,it seems that several think so.
5.Does the actual construction of Frams mean that they are a bad product?
Probably not,they seem to be constructed as well as some others.
The quality of the products used in construction may not be to the liking of some.
6.Have you or do you personaly know anyone that has had an engine damaged by Fram?
This is not a 'my friends gilrfriends uncles friends friend had a Fram blow up their engine' type question.
This is a first hand knowledge only question.
7.Are there better filters?
Yes but if one changes their oil with 3K OCI's,is a different filter needed?
I have not used a Fram oil filter for a few years now but I used to use them a lot.
I dont know that they caused any problems.
What I dont like about Fram is the small oil inlet holes that the filters have.
Theres several questions one may consider when using Frams.
1.Will they destroy an engine?
The answer is;No,they probably wont.
Neither would an empty filter can destroy an engine in a fast obvious way.
2.Are they made cheaper than the rest?
Maybe,maybe not.There is a new filter construction on the market that is similar to Fram.
While cardboard isnt used,there is a bonding used between two similar filter materials.
That's the old "look over there" argument.
Two sow's ears don't make a silk purse
3.Does the amount of filter material in a filter mean anything?
Once again,this is a maybe maybe not.The type and quality of the material means more than the actual amount used.
A filter may have 200 sq.inches of type A filter media that is a basic filtering material.
Filter B may have 110 sq.inches of type B filter media that is a higher standard in filtering material.
You cant always go by the amount of media.
We consumers don't have much useful information on media. Lacking that information, it's logical to assume that a company that cuts corners in obvious ways cuts them in not obvious ways. Fram uses better quailty media??
4.Are Frams overpriced?
Possibly,it seems that several think so.
5.Does the actual construction of Frams mean that they are a bad product?
Probably not,they seem to be constructed as well as some others.
The old "look over there argument again".
The quality of the products used in construction may not be to the liking of some.
No disagreement there.
6.Have you or do you personaly know anyone that has had an engine damaged by Fram?
This is not a 'my friends gilrfriends uncles friends friend had a Fram blow up their engine' type question.
This is a first hand knowledge only question.
I don't personally know anyone who has died as reuslt of driving down the wrong side of the freeway either. I have read about a few and after some deep thought about the practice have choosen to not do it.
7.Are there better filters?
Yes but if one changes their oil with 3K OCI's,is a different filter needed?
No filter is needed if your standards are low enough. A more useful question would be "Are there worse major brand name filters?"
What I dont like about Fram is the small oil inlet holes that the filters have.
That's the least of their problems. The total hole area is reasonable compared to the rate of oil flow in an engine. The oil velocity through the holes is within the limits of good practice.
1.Will they destroy an engine?
The answer is;No,they probably wont.
Neither would an empty filter can destroy an engine in a fast obvious way.
2.Are they made cheaper than the rest?
Maybe,maybe not.There is a new filter construction on the market that is similar to Fram.
While cardboard isnt used,there is a bonding used between two similar filter materials.
That's the old "look over there" argument.
Two sow's ears don't make a silk purse
3.Does the amount of filter material in a filter mean anything?
Once again,this is a maybe maybe not.The type and quality of the material means more than the actual amount used.
A filter may have 200 sq.inches of type A filter media that is a basic filtering material.
Filter B may have 110 sq.inches of type B filter media that is a higher standard in filtering material.
You cant always go by the amount of media.
We consumers don't have much useful information on media. Lacking that information, it's logical to assume that a company that cuts corners in obvious ways cuts them in not obvious ways. Fram uses better quailty media??
4.Are Frams overpriced?
Possibly,it seems that several think so.
5.Does the actual construction of Frams mean that they are a bad product?
Probably not,they seem to be constructed as well as some others.
The old "look over there argument again".
The quality of the products used in construction may not be to the liking of some.
No disagreement there.
6.Have you or do you personaly know anyone that has had an engine damaged by Fram?
This is not a 'my friends gilrfriends uncles friends friend had a Fram blow up their engine' type question.
This is a first hand knowledge only question.
I don't personally know anyone who has died as reuslt of driving down the wrong side of the freeway either. I have read about a few and after some deep thought about the practice have choosen to not do it.
7.Are there better filters?
Yes but if one changes their oil with 3K OCI's,is a different filter needed?
No filter is needed if your standards are low enough. A more useful question would be "Are there worse major brand name filters?"
What I dont like about Fram is the small oil inlet holes that the filters have.
That's the least of their problems. The total hole area is reasonable compared to the rate of oil flow in an engine. The oil velocity through the holes is within the limits of good practice.
XS650,I am only making a few points about Fram.As I said,'I dont use them'and have not for some time.
I do however wonder if Frams are as bad as some say.
I also wonder if the new Champs are as good as some say.
When it comes to filters,a person has the choice of which to use.
You have no proof that Frams filtering media is not better that the others.
You are speculating just as others do regarding such.
I only listed some things to think about regarding Frams,do you have any proof that they are bad?
What you have stated is opinion.
I do however wonder if Frams are as bad as some say.
I also wonder if the new Champs are as good as some say.
When it comes to filters,a person has the choice of which to use.
You have no proof that Frams filtering media is not better that the others.
You are speculating just as others do regarding such.
I only listed some things to think about regarding Frams,do you have any proof that they are bad?
What you have stated is opinion.
My only problem with Fram is the noise on startup due to their poor ADBV. My latest example was on my fathers 1998 Suburu. He called and asked what type of oil to use because of the noise. I asked him if he had an orange Fram filter on it. He did, so I had him replace it with a Napa Gold filter and the sound was gone. I would have a hard time putting on a Fram filter unitl they resolve the start up issues. There are too many other filters out there that do not have this problem.
I also prefer a larger filtering area when possible - but that's my personal preference. The cardboard end caps don't bother me as long as they do not fail. Same goes for the filtering media - I don;t want it to fail. Like I said - too many other options out there,
I also prefer a larger filtering area when possible - but that's my personal preference. The cardboard end caps don't bother me as long as they do not fail. Same goes for the filtering media - I don;t want it to fail. Like I said - too many other options out there,
I was looking at a hot rod catalog the other day and they have a Fram filter for twenty dollars, some kind of Nascar type for ultra high performance engines or something. It looks like a regular orange extra guard from the eighties.
So i'm guessing, what makes this filter better?
I don't have twenty bucks to buy one and cut em open, so I'm wondering if anybody's seen/used this type before?
Here's my thing, Several years back before the chain stores took over sometimes the only cheap filter you could find WAS a Fram. I, and many millions before me used them and nothing really bad ever happened to the engine as a direct result of faulty oil filter construction.
I have used frams off and on for many years. Sometimes the gaskets aren't sealed properly. Sometimes the can is rusted inside. Sometimes the endcap is loose/missing. Many many times the gasket is sealed to the block when I take the filter off.
Sometimes Wix/Napa filters leak from the gasket and from the seam.
I don't buy Frams and I don't buy Wix unless I have to.
Are they bad filters? Maybe, maybe not. Are they overpriced for such poor construction? I say so.
Have I ever had any flaw in the thousands of Purolator manufactured filters I've used through the years? Nope.
So I guess it's like this, I'll try any filter so long as it's reasonably priced and I find no fault with. Fram has lost me as a customer because I found that I can get better for cheaper. but I don't think that they're ticking time bombs waiting to go off and destroy an engine like a lot of people here think.
So i'm guessing, what makes this filter better?
I don't have twenty bucks to buy one and cut em open, so I'm wondering if anybody's seen/used this type before?
Here's my thing, Several years back before the chain stores took over sometimes the only cheap filter you could find WAS a Fram. I, and many millions before me used them and nothing really bad ever happened to the engine as a direct result of faulty oil filter construction.
I have used frams off and on for many years. Sometimes the gaskets aren't sealed properly. Sometimes the can is rusted inside. Sometimes the endcap is loose/missing. Many many times the gasket is sealed to the block when I take the filter off.
Sometimes Wix/Napa filters leak from the gasket and from the seam.
I don't buy Frams and I don't buy Wix unless I have to.
Are they bad filters? Maybe, maybe not. Are they overpriced for such poor construction? I say so.
Have I ever had any flaw in the thousands of Purolator manufactured filters I've used through the years? Nope.
So I guess it's like this, I'll try any filter so long as it's reasonably priced and I find no fault with. Fram has lost me as a customer because I found that I can get better for cheaper. but I don't think that they're ticking time bombs waiting to go off and destroy an engine like a lot of people here think.
I think many would say that fram made a better filter b4 allied signal bought them. I just dont care.
If you are referring to the new Champ Ecore filters, I see little similarity to the Fram at all. True, neither has the sacred metal end caps. Of course, WIX, Mann, Hengt. Mahle, and other high end filter manufacturers have been building filter elements with plastic end caps for years. Are all the filter elements Fram like trash, for lack of metal end caps? And that is all you can buy, not only for my Ecotec, but many of the big dollar European cars. Maybe it is time to give up your fetish for metal end caps.
Evidence:
This is a failed filter, it doesn't not apear to have any defects, just design problems. The ADBV is easily bypass and in fact hardened into this possition.
Other then lube-owners posts I have not seen a non-Fram fail like this.
-T
This is a failed filter, it doesn't not apear to have any defects, just design problems. The ADBV is easily bypass and in fact hardened into this possition.
Other then lube-owners posts I have not seen a non-Fram fail like this.
-T
T-Keith,what was the mileage and OCI of this filter?
What shape was the engine in?
I am not saying that the filter pictured wansnt a bad filter but this is only one.
As has been said regarding other filters,this could be an allowable failure.
In other words,it would fall into what is the acceptable rate of failure.
What shape was the engine in?
I am not saying that the filter pictured wansnt a bad filter but this is only one.
As has been said regarding other filters,this could be an allowable failure.
In other words,it would fall into what is the acceptable rate of failure.
I used Fram filters exclusively on my 1984 BMW 325E which I owned for 14 years. I bought the car new, and changed the oil myself every 3,000 miles and the car had over 251,000 miles on it when I traded it in. The engine didn't burn oil at all, and it ran like new. Do I still use Frams? NO....because with my new car, I let the dealer do all the oil changes. I've gotten to the age where crawling under cars and getting dirty simply isn't that appealing anymore. Plus, my neighbors were getting cranky about me dumping my used oil in their garden!
I think the point comes down to if you feel its worth it. Quality oil and the OCI is probably more important that the quality of the oil filter. But in the total cost of the vehicle or boat, the $3.00 Fram or $10.00 M1 (or Amsoil) is not that big a deal. Over the lifetime (20 5K oil changes) of the $30K vehicle, the difference between using a Fram and a M1 or Amsoil is what maybe $150. Gas will have cost you $10,000. (25MPG, 4000 gallons at $2.50/gallon).
SNIP
Frams fail but are they as bad as some have made them out to be.
As has been said,any filter will fail,we heard this over and over regarding the Warner filter issue.
Considering filters seem to fail,is Frams failure rate in normal use any worse than others?
Do Frams actually cause engine damage in normal use?
SNIP
Frams fail but are they as bad as some have made them out to be.
As has been said,any filter will fail,we heard this over and over regarding the Warner filter issue.
Considering filters seem to fail,is Frams failure rate in normal use any worse than others?
Do Frams actually cause engine damage in normal use?
the only thing I dislike about Fram is the price.
Around here Fram goes for about 4 bucks (kragen, pepboys, wallmart, autozone) where as a Champion goes for 2.50-3.00 and a Puroloator goes for 3.00 to 4.00.
Why would I go FRAM when I can get a Purolator for the same price.
Your prices may vary...
Around here Fram goes for about 4 bucks (kragen, pepboys, wallmart, autozone) where as a Champion goes for 2.50-3.00 and a Puroloator goes for 3.00 to 4.00.
Why would I go FRAM when I can get a Purolator for the same price.
Your prices may vary...
Jeeezz. I have used many of fram oil filters.
BUT, I will never use one again.
A little education goes a long way.
BUT, I will never use one again.
A little education goes a long way.
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