Fram Endurance Flashlight Test in canister

[garageman402]

Interesting fact!
“On average, swimmers contribute between 100 and 200 milliliters of urine per swim workout. If there are 200 swimmers in a pool at one time, that means there could be over 100 gallons of urine in the pool. “
Seems like a lot!! But….
There’s an average of 660,000 gallons of water in average Olympic size pool!!
So the concentration of urine is a minuscule .015%.
This entire bypass saga boils down to a matter proportionality and practicality.
A defect that in this case, albeit a reflection of an imperfection, is not materially significant in comparison to the overall established superiority of the FUNCTIONING filter.

.015% = 150ppm. If you had 150ppm of iron or copper in your oil, you'd be upset.

"Proportionality & practicality" would apply IF you knew exactly how much was being bypassed. This bypass is constant, every filter medium has some restriction, even when new. There is always a deltaP, the more the filter is clogged, the more oil goes through the leak. Fact is, we don't know, and, as in your pool analogy, we assume the maximum. You can't say that there are 150ppm of pee in the pool, if you don't know how many people peed & how much they peed. I like to think they didn't dump their entire bladder in it..........

 

[garageman402]

Lol ….I don’t have Prime , so about $40 out the door plus a $12 filter…, wasted money. What will it prove? That another filter has a minute space under its bypass? And if it doesn’t… the score is now “EVEN” with the results shown at the start here.

Most people I've seen cutting use this one, it's a lot cheaper, eBay has them too. It's a Longacre knockoff, but even the ones with the Longacre sticker look identical.

 

[Fair enough]

What if there was a 99% efficiency pee filter and all the pool water passed through the filter every 30 seconds, how much pee do we have in the pool?

 

[Chumango]

Great news!! Please post the build dates. Im trying to track the change over.

I picked up a couple of 7317 titaniums at the local AAP today. Round holes in the center tube, and metal screen backing visible. Date code on both is A31663.

There were others on the shelf with louvers, some with similar date codes some with later. Though it was hard to see, it looked to me that there is also a metal screen backing for those filters. That is interesting to me since clearly there have been some made without the metal screen backing. All the boxes and the current website clearly state that the titanium has a metal backing screen.

One of the OG titanium had the same issue with the messed up threads as some endurance I have seen. I left that one behind.

On another note, I don't know why the titanium would not have the same issue as the endurance with the sealing of the bypass valve assembly, at least for this particular size.

 

[Glenda W.]

I picked up a couple of 7317 titaniums at the local AAP today. Round holes in the center tube, and metal screen backing visible. Date code on both is A31663.

There were others on the shelf with louvers, some with similar date codes some with later. Though it was hard to see, it looked to me that there is also a metal screen backing for those filters. That is interesting to me since clearly there have been some made without the metal screen backing. All the boxes and the current website clearly state that the titanium has a metal backing screen.

One of the OG titanium had the same issue with the messed up threads as some endurance I have seen. I left that one behind.

On another note, I don't know why the titanium would not have the same issue as the endurance with the sealing of the bypass valve assembly, at least for this particular size.

Good find!! The endurance is made by Champ Labs so different manufacturer. I did test an OG titanium and it passed with flying colors. Link below

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...s7317-c-p-with-bypass-flashlight-test.386754/

 

[Ronn]

What if there was a 99% efficiency pee filter and all the pool water passed through the filter every 30 seconds, how much pee do we have in the pool?

Great point and I was going to address this myself!
Some are trying to compare this to a “hole in the AIR filter”, but in that instance, the air (and its contaminants) PASS THROUGH ONLY ONCE, permanently discharging particles into the engine (intake).
In the case of a minute hole in the oil filter (or in this case a minute diversion of unfiltered oil beneath the bypass), the unfiltered oil gets unlimited opportunities to recirculate back through the filter media with any associated contaminants ultimately removed.
One is an “open system” and the other a “closed loop” system. This essentially minimizes any negative impacts of relativity small amounts of oil being initially diverted around the filter media. This is what many critics of this “bypass imperfection” don’t grasp.
Also….
If you look at the many vids showing the tear down of these filters, you’ll notice how “easy” it was to lift the bypass assembly off the filter canister. No surprise then, that there isn’t a “perfect” seal there…even if it’s under tension when assembled into the canister.
I suspect Fram, Amsoil, Royal Purple and others are aware as well.
And…. are aware of how this has minimal impact on overall filter performance.

 

[Glenda W.]

Leaking air filter deposits silicon in the oil which is then circulated through the leaking oil filter through out the engine. One system working together preferably with no leaks, tears, holes etc.

 

[Ronn]

Leaking air filter deposits silicon in the oil which is then circulated through the leaking oil filter through out the engine. One system working together preferably with no leaks, tears, holes etc.

The oil filter is only limited by its rating. If the silicon particles fall within that range, they’ll be removed.
Any leaks (whether it be seepage of bypass or through a small hole in the filter) of particles that fall within its filtering range will ultimately be trapped in the filter media. They key is to prevent an ACCUMULATION of contaminants. An AIR filter with a hole in it will work against this goal. Hopefully, It will be left up to the oil filter to accomplish this.

 

[Glenda W.]

The oil filter is only limited by its rating. If the silicon particles fall within that range, they’ll be removed.
Any leaks (whether it be seepage of bypass or through a small hole in the filter) of particles that fall within its filtering range will ultimately be trapped in the filter media. They key is to prevent an ACCUMULATION of contaminants. An AIR filter with a hole in it will work against this goal. Hopefully, It will be left up to the oil filter to accomplish this.

How big do you think microns are? The holes in the base plate will pass massive particles compared to the rating. Again the iso ratings are out the window with holes in the base plate. Project Farm jr too.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Great point and I was going to address this myself!
Some are trying to compare this to a “hole in the AIR filter”, but in that instance, the air (and its contaminants) PASS THROUGH ONLY ONCE, permanently discharging particles into the engine (intake).
In the case of a minute hole in the oil filter (or in this case a minute diversion of unfiltered oil beneath the bypass), the unfiltered oil gets unlimited opportunities to recirculate back through the filter media with any associated contaminants ultimately removed.
One is an “open system” and the other a “closed loop” system. This essentially minimizes any negative impacts of relativity small amounts of oil being initially diverted around the filter media. This is what many critics of this “bypass imperfection” don’t grasp.

And every time some dirty oil goes around the media through a leak it has a chance to do more wear. The whole purpose of an oil filter is to filter the oil of particulate that can cause wear and damage. Any time any dirty oil gets by the filter, even if it's caught the next time around, has the ability to cause wear. Your argument is the same one used when torn media was being beat to death ... some arguing that big tears in the media is fine because the particulate in the oil will probably go through the filter media on some other pass through the oiling system, lol.

f you look at the many vids showing the tear down of these filters, you’ll notice how “easy” it was to lift the bypass assembly off the filter canister. No surprise then, that there isn’t a “perfect” seal there…even if it’s under tension when assembled into the canister.

How tight the leaf spring fits into the center tube hole has nothing to do with how it seals. The metal-to-metal seal is the flat area on the top of the end cap and the flat area on the leaf spring. No sealing is done on the sides of the center tube hole ... that's been pointed out many times already.

I suspect Fram, Amsoil, Royal Purple and others are aware as well.
And…. are aware of how this has minimal impact on overall filter performance.

Your assuming it's "minimal" without proof through controlled testing. The larger the gap, the more impact on efficiency of course. And a pretty small gap will flow more volume than you'd think with a low amount of dP cross the filter. Calculation examples have been shown. It has to be calculated to get a real understanding, because most people can't comprehend how fluid flow works just by looking at something.

 

[Ronn]

How big do you think microns are? The holes in the base plate will pass massive particles compared to the rating. Again the iso ratings are out the window with holes in the base plate. Project Farm jr too.

LOL...
Let me explain....of course the gaps (or any filter hole) are HUNDREDS of microns wide! My point is that the larger particles in that category (that get through the gap) will get filtered out in SUBSEQUENT PASSES as they go through the filter itself. The key here is to preclude ACCUMULATION of deposits in the engine.
The TOTAL SURFACE AREA of the functioning filter is THOUSANDS of times greater than the total area of any tiny "crevasse" passing unfiltered oil. This is why I keep stressing that minute breaches of filter media are PEANUTS if you have a very efficient filter to begin with. Keep in mind.... periodic breaches are actually PLANNED as a function of the bypass valve itself! Under very COLD startups, the valve will OPEN allowing a very significant volume of unfiltered oil to temporarily bypass until the oil viscosity is reduced enough to freely pass through the filter. The manufactures are fully aware that this unfiltered oil will get filtered and aren't concerned.
LOL.....Again...here comes "THE DEAD HORSE" only to be beaten one more time>>>>The whole enchilada on this will only be resolved if or when an autopsy is performed after a thorough filter test is performed. It's not likely to be ISO LAB per se, so BRAND RANKS comes to mind.

 

[garageman402]

LOL...
Let me explain....of course the gaps (or any filter hole) are HUNDREDS of microns wide! My point is that the larger particles in that category (that get through the gap) will get filtered out in SUBSEQUENT PASSES as they go through the filter itself. The key here is to preclude ACCUMULATION of deposits in the engine.

The first pass they get through & cause damage, possibly releasing metallic debris, so now the debris has multiplied in number from the ONE particle that got through. Subsequent passes assumes the particle didn't cause damage the first time.

The TOTAL SURFACE AREA of the functioning filter is THOUSANDS of times greater than the total area of any tiny "crevasse" passing unfiltered oil. This is why I keep stressing that minute breaches of filter media are PEANUTS if you have a very efficient filter to begin with.

Yes, the surface area is hundreds, maybe thousands times more, but that surface area is causing a pressure drop so more debris would follow the main stream through the breach. I agree it's a shame such a great filtering medium is supported by such an inferior structure. The medium would have to filter 100% of everything down to 1um to offset the contamination from the breach.

Keep in mind.... periodic breaches are actually PLANNED as a function of the bypass valve itself! Under very COLD startups, the valve will OPEN allowing a very significant volume of unfiltered oil to temporarily bypass until the oil viscosity is reduced enough to freely pass through the filter. The manufactures are fully aware that this unfiltered oil will get filtered and aren't concerned.

Periodic breaches are NOT planned, in fact people are encouraged NOT to force the breach by revving an ice cold engine. The bypass is a last ditch life saving effort to avoid oil starvation. Too thick an oil, filter medium getting clogged, even excessive RPM may cause the bypass to activate. The problem is there is no (practical) way to know when its bypassing, we are guessing based on oil viscosity & media restriction. A bypass valve with a higher opening pressure would indicate media capable of withstanding higher deltaP, hence more flow through the media, less bypassed.

 

[Ronn]

The first pass they get through & cause damage, possibly releasing metallic debris, so now the debris has multiplied in number from the ONE particle that got through. Subsequent passes assumes the particle didn't cause damage the first time.

Yes, the surface area is hundreds, maybe thousands times more, but that surface area is causing a pressure drop so more debris would follow the main stream through the breach. I agree it's a shame such a great filtering medium is supported by such an inferior structure. The medium would have to filter 100% of everything down to 1um to offset the contamination from the breach.

Periodic breaches are NOT planned, in fact people are encouraged NOT to force the breach by revving an ice cold engine. The bypass is a last ditch life saving effort to avoid oil starvation. Too thick an oil, filter medium getting clogged, even excessive RPM may cause the bypass to activate. The problem is there is no (practical) way to know when its bypassing, we are guessing based on oil viscosity & media restriction. A bypass valve with a higher opening pressure would indicate media capable of withstanding higher deltaP, hence more flow through the media, less bypassed.

It's "PLANNED"...otherwise why put it there. Yes, the "plan" is to prevent catastrophic loss of oil should the can burst open. I'll wager we see routine activation of the valve more than you think in colder climates.
"The medium would have to filter 100% of everything down to 1um to offset the contamination from the breach."
Disagree, multiple courses of recirculation (doesn't take very long) would be sufficient to remove 99% (the rating) of particles above or equal to 20 microns....which is what it would normally do even without a bypass breach.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The TOTAL SURFACE AREA of the functioning filter is THOUSANDS of times greater than the total area of any tiny "crevasse" passing unfiltered oil. This is why I keep stressing that minute breaches of filter media are PEANUTS if you have a very efficient filter to begin with. Keep in mind....

A small leak path will flow way more volume than you think. Most people can't accurately assess flow without actual analysis.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...o-bypass-seal-area.386625/page-5#post-6998340

periodic breaches are actually PLANNED as a function of the bypass valve itself! Under very COLD startups, the valve will OPEN allowing a very significant volume of unfiltered oil to temporarily bypass until the oil viscosity is reduced enough to freely pass through the filter. The manufactures are fully aware that this unfiltered oil will get filtered and aren't concerned.

Yes, but those kind of bypass valve opening episodes are temporary and short term ... not a constant leak like a permanent gap. Ideally, a bypass valve should be designed to not leak. And it should be set high enough to minimize bypass valve openings. The bypass valve is there to also protect the media and center tube from damage if the dP gets too high.

The interface between the leaf spring and the end cap should also be designed not to leak. The OG Ultra design with the fiber sealing ring on the end cap was there for a reason, because Fram knew with just a metal-to-metal seal on the leaf spring there could be some dirty oil leakage that would hurt the ISO efficiency. As pointed out somewhere in all these dead horse threads, when filters are ISO tested there's an option to remove the bypass valve out of the system. Ascent's ISO efficiency testing was on the full functioning filter, so the bypass valves were included. The Fram Ultra he tested (XG10575) had the fiber gasket for the leaf spring - you can see it in his bubble point test YT video.

 

[garageman402]

It's "PLANNED"...otherwise why put it there. Yes, the "plan" is to prevent catastrophic loss of oil should the can burst open. I'll wager we see routine activation of the valve more than you think in colder climates.

The "plan" is a lifesaving last ditch effort to avoid engine failure (dirty oil is better than no oil). BTW, the valve will do nothing if the can burst open Lol.

OK, you are the pee expert apparently, if you were stranded in the desert with only pee in a can to drink, you would drink it to save your life. It is not healthy, it could damage your internals long term, but it will KEEP YOU ALIVE. Do you plan to drink pee in the desert? No (I hope). Would you if was life or death? Yes. The bypass opening is actually an act of desperation, the engine needs oil in a bad way.

 

[ZeeOSix]

It's "PLANNED"...otherwise why put it there. Yes, the "plan" is to prevent catastrophic loss of oil should the can burst open. I'll wager we see routine activation of the valve more than you think in colder climates.

So now that bypass valves open once and awhile for short durations under certain conditions, it's OK to have a permanent leak gap or torn media because the oil will eventually go through the media and get cleaned up.

 

[Ronn]

So now that bypass valves open once and awhile for short durations under certain conditions, it's OK to have a permanent leak gap or torn media because the oil will eventually go through the media and get cleaned up.

“It’s ok to have a permanent leak”
Is that what I said???
How about this particular leak is a nothing burger?

 

[garageman402]

Disagree, multiple courses of recirculation (doesn't take very long) would be sufficient to remove 99% (the rating) of particles above or equal to 20 microns....which is what it would normally do even without a bypass breach.

I realize "multi-pass efficiency" is a value given by filter manufacturers, but I think it's there just to get higher numbers for marketing purposes. Maybe @ZeeOSix can elaborate, is the value given actually multi-pass efficiency? So it's more of an index to compare other filters with rather than an actual value?

It’s ok to have a permanent leak”
Is that what I said???
How about this particular leak is a nothing burger?

Yes, by calling it a nothing burger you imply that it's ok.

 

[Ronn]

Wow , lot of people getting their pants all up in a bunch here….
Think I’ll take my car for a spin now, but I’ll make **** sure I pull that Endurance out first!!!

 

[ZeeOSix]

I realize "multi-pass efficiency" is a value given by filter manufacturers, but I think it's there just to get higher numbers for marketing purposes. Maybe @ZeeOSix can elaborate, is the value given actually multi-pass efficiency? So it's more of an index to compare other filters with rather than an actual value?

ISO 4548-12 is a multi-pass test with calibrated real time particle counters upstream and downstream of the filter which continuously measuring the efficiency as the filter loads up. The long thread about Ascent's ISO testing gets into a lot of that. The ISO efficiency also gives an idea of how a filter's efficiency can change (it decreases) as the it loads up and the dP increases. A filter that has a high ISO efficiency rating doesn't lose much efficiency as it loads up. Some filters like the Wix XP and Purolator Boss have a low overall ISO efficiency (avg of test start and end efficiency) because they really start losing efficiency (slough off already captured debris) as they load up. That was shown in the Ascent thread too.