Fram Endurance Flashlight Test in canister

[Glenda W.]

Ronn you can see obvious differences here. My upper two pics have much worse workmanship.

 

[jim302]

Fram really went and messed up their perfect filter line; the OG Ultra, and what’s worse is offer an “upgraded” super premium line that is apparently defective out of the box.

Corporate greed strikes again. I don’t want to buy their brand anymore based on their ethics alone. You have a perfect product and then go this route.

Thanks for doing the work to dissect these!

Wonder if an email would make any difference or what kind of response it would generate?

They don't care, if they did they wouldn't have laid off Jay aka Motorking, who used to spend time here and on other forums discussing their products and defending the brand against the fear mongering over things that didn't matter such as nonmetallic end caps. If anyone posted about a defect, he was usually quick to respond and willing to investigate.

 

[ZeeOSix]

This what you say in the other thread>>
"Again, you nor anyone else here doesn't know if the ones tested for efficiency were leakers or not. You're assuming they were, but they could have been built better then, and not have had any leak paths. This is why I keep saying the only way to know would be a cut open and inspect after every test. Or get Superman in the test lab."

This video was from March 2023 and compares old Ultra and new Endurance. You can see new bypass seats differently and undoubtably has the leak defect from the get go.
The Filter test I refer to is from DEC 2023....so we know the Endurance tested that I refer to...9 months later...has the same bypass. The screen shot shows side by side….the blue valve is the Endurance and you can it seats differently.



View attachment 238809

Well, that proves my point. The one on the left is an older Endurance, back when they were probably ISO efficiency tested. Compare that to the ratty looking Endurance leaf spring in this thread and the other thread about the Endurance leaf spring. The one in the Whip City video is MUCH better stamped. It's actually very nice ... compared to the current ratty stamped leaf springs seen here. Look how flat, smooth and large the sealing area is on that leaf spring on the left - the old Endurance filter. Also compare it to post 41 above. Something has changed in the production of the Endurance leaf spring. The OG Ultra is on the right.

From post 41 above ... this one is ratty looking compared to the older Endurance leaf spring.

 

[Reloader59]

Frambois will have an answer for everything

 

[Ronn]

Well, that proves my point. The one on the left is an older Endurance, back when they were probably ISO efficiency tested. Compare that to the ratty looking Endurance leaf spring in this thread and the other thread about the Endurance leaf spring. The one in the Whip City video is MUCH better stamped. It's actually very nice ... compared to the current ratty stamped leaf springs seen here. Look how flat, smooth and large the sealing area is on that leaf spring on the left - the old Endurance filter. Also compare it to post 41 above. Something has changed in the production of the Endurance leaf spring. The OG Ultra is on the right.

View attachment 238811

From post 41 above ... this one is ratty looking compared to the older Endurance leaf spring.

View attachment 238815

Look at the seating...that's key. The Endurance valve from video isn't seated down into the plate like the old Ultra..night and day. That's what's causing the small gaps below. Got nothing to do with the stamping, other than the way valve sits in it.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Look at the seating...that's key. The Endurance valve from video isn't seated down into the plate like the old Ultra..night and day. That's what's causing the small gaps below. Got nothing to do with the stamping, other than the way valve sits in it.

It wasn't shown how it seated into the end cap in the video. Are you seeing things now that aren't actually shown, lol.

 

[Ronn]

Ok, look from this angle. The rim at the base of the valve “dome” on top of the plate is more shallow and not as smooth in the Endurance than the Old Ultra, so it doesn't sink as low into the filter. The rim edge also not perfectly straight...it's a bit "flared" outward and "rounded". This prevents a tight interface with the rim of the filter itself. This is where we see the gaps … right at the base of this dome and the flat base where it sits on the filter body. The rest of the spring plate doesn’t play a role in this.
Endurance above
Old Ultra below

 

[ZeeOSix]

Ok, look from this angle. The rim at the base of the valve “dome” on top of the plate is more shallow and not as smooth in the Endurance than the Old Ultra, so it doesn't sink as low into the filter. The rim edge also not perfectly straight...it's a bit "flared" outward and "rounded". This prevents a tight interface with the rim of the filter itself. This is where we see the gaps … right at the base of this dome and the flat base where it sits on the filter body. The rest of the spring plate doesn’t play a role in this.

It doesn't matter what the part that sticks down into the end cap looks like or how far down it goes into the end cap, or even how "tight" ti fits into the end cap. The seal is not on the sides of the end cap, it's on the top of the end cap. Some even have ridges on the sides of the end cap down in the center tube just to hold the leaf spring, but those ridges prevent any sealing on the side edge interface.

The part that matters on the leaf spring as far as a metal-to-meat seal is the surface area that's painted red in this photo. And the mating surface on the end cap side. You need two flat and smooth surfaces to make a decent metal-to-metal seal ... nothing else matters. If it's all ratty like the current Endurance leaf springs, then it won't seal well at all as shown by the light test.

 

[Ronn]

It doesn't matter what the part that sticks down into the end cap looks like or how far down it goes into the end cap, or even how "tight" ti fits into the end cap. The seal is not on the sides of the end cap, it's on the top of the end cap. Some even have ridges on the sides of the end cap down in the center tube just to hold the leaf spring, but those ridges prevent any sealing on the side edge interface.

The part that matters on the leaf spring as far as a metal-to-meat seal is the surface area that's painted red in this photo. And the mating surface on the end cap side. You need two flat and smooth surfaces to make a decent metal-to-metal seal ... nothing else matters. If it's all ratty like the current Endurance leaf springs, then it won't seal well at all as shown by the light test.

View attachment 238834

The light is escaping (shining) from below the valve face and travels through gaps in the sides and then escapes out the rim base you show in red. This why a tight seal between the rim of the dome and side of the filter is key. A shallow interface also contributes to the problem.
Going to end on this note:
The amount of oil seepage is minuscule when valve is closed ( almost always). This issue for me is a nothing burger, given the ultimate filtering capability. Best we agree to disagree and move on . That’s what I intend to do going forward. “This Horse Has Been Beaten to a Pulp” at this point.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The light is escaping (shining) from below the valve face and travels through gaps in the sides and then escapes out the rim base you show in red. This why a tight seal between the rim of the dome and side of the filter is key. A shallow interface also contributes to the problem.

No leaf spring is meant to seal on the side of the rim ... all the sealing is on the face I painted red in the previous post. The ridges on the sides of the end cap opening will not allow any sealing in that area. Seems you really don't understand the design, and think it works in a way it really doesn't. It's not designed to seal on the sides, all the sealing is on the flat smooth lip as shown above. And when they lip is made warped and rough, it's no surprise there is light (and oil) leakage at that gap.

Going to end on this note:
The amount of oil seepage is minuscule when valve is closed ( almost always). This issue for me is a nothing burger, given the ultimate filtering capability. Best we agree to disagree and move on . That’s what I intend to do going forward. “This Horse Has Been Beaten to a Pulp” at this point.

You don't really know if the efficiency is still good, because you or anyone else has shown any firm correlation between the efficiency and the leakage gap seen. Any you can't "speculate" that the filters tested in the ISO 4548-12 test were leakers. Most likely they weren't based on the leaf spring design seen in the early build Endurance filter seen in the Whip City video. That leaf spring is well designed and well formed, so most likely sealed as well as any metal-to-metal seal can work.

 

[garageman402]

Your welcome! I’d say the gaps are definitely openings. Plenty of room for microns to pass…

So, you said you were taking those FE's you just installed out on Tuesday, I presume this will seal their fate for early termination?

 

[KevinMalone]

It's sad to see another victim of corporate greed and cost cutting. Some MBA probably figured that the cost savings exceeded any potential warranty claims resulting from this, and the result is we get defective products. I liked Fram too - it was nice to support something made in USA and the Suregrip was nice to have.

Can anyone make a filter without issues now?

 

[Glenda W.]

So, you said you were taking those FE's you just installed out on Tuesday, I presume this will seal their fate for early termination?

Yes, this is it for me. My Subaru will be changed by this weekend now. My daughters Acura I won’t see for another 3000 miles. I will use the OG’s as long as I can and then Car Quest Premium/Microgard Select.

 

[wemay]

Just as soon as I said in another thread, "probably my favorite filters" this thread and Whip City come out with this. SMH, Fram.

 

[Ronn]

It doesn't matter what the part that sticks down into the end cap looks like or how far down it goes into the end cap, or even how "tight" ti fits into the end cap. The seal is not on the sides of the end cap, it's on the top of the end cap. Some even have ridges on the sides of the end cap down in the center tube just to hold the leaf spring, but those ridges prevent any sealing on the side edge interface.

The part that matters on the leaf spring as far as a metal-to-meat seal is the surface area that's painted red in this photo. And the mating surface on the end cap side. You need two flat and smooth surfaces to make a decent metal-to-metal seal ... nothing else matters. If it's all ratty like the current Endurance leaf springs, then it won't seal well at all as shown by the light test.

View attachment 238834

 

[bullwinkle]

Sad thing is if they would have kept the little fiber ring under the leaf spring, the ripples wouldn't have stopped it from sealing! Nice work, OP, you proved this issue meant something after all.

 

[cptbarkey]

And here I thought the decades old past threads of Fram were long gone, dead and buried. Glenda has found the big one. Again, it is the Legend.

 

[Sayjac]

I would say this pretty much settles it. .......

Honestly, 'I' was settled on it after my virgin FE7317 finding (seeing similar on an ST MP7317), but @Glenda W. went beyond with keeping the element in the can, then adding oil to the removed element showing oil flow.

As I noted numerous times, having c&p many and majority stamped flat spring filters, unlike a coil compression spring there is very little "spring tension" with them. So, I was satisfied that the otherwise untouched bypass piece outside the can, (a change from WCW testing), gave a representative and accurate finding of the 'Champ Labs made' FE seal area, and the light leakage seen there.

Further the 'Fram made' OG Titanium also has a metal on metal stamped spring bypass seal area, the OP's recent c&p showed no light at all. So much for the outside the can "spring tension" variable idea. Seal area can be done properly, even with flat spring no gasket.

I also think indisputable now after multiple trials from different sources showing the same results. seal area light leakage, that Champ Labs division FB has a design and/or execution issue with their metal on metal stamped flat spring bypass.

As an aside. I literally lol'd at a comment in my thread calling the light testing 'black magic' flashlight test. Sometimes, a practical test is all that's needed.

 

[4WD]

From one of the more expensive - CL made RP 20-500

 

[garageman402]

Yes, this is it for me. My Subaru will be changed by this weekend now. My daughters Acura I won’t see for another 3000 miles. I will use the OG’s as long as I can and then Car Quest Premium/Microgard Select.

Good deal!

Do you think there was less light coming through with the parts still inside the can? The pics not that detailed & I understand the difficulties, but I trust your eyes. I agree, light leakage is light leakage, I'm just wondering how much, if any, a difference there was between installed in the can & outside.

I noticed you had some holes in the side too, Were they helpful, or did you just do that to locate the position of the bracket?

Once again, great work, thanks!!