Four reasons why Subaru will stay num. one in AWD

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: gofast182

The Sport Hybrid version in the RLX is probably the most advanced application of an AWD system in any vehicle less than $100K. It truly is quite ingenious and the performance of that car belies its size/weight. Look for a similar system (only reversed with the individual electric motors on the front wheels) in the new NSX. Expect 600HP total out of that system.

Look for a lightened version of the mechanical system with improved logic in the new V6 TLX coming out this summer. The main disadvantage of the current system is it's quite heavy. For comparison sake, the Subaru systems, like in the WRX and STi are much better for weight.


I was under the impression that the NSX was going to be a hybrid/AWD mix. As in, the front wheels would be driven by electric motors and not connected to the mechanical drivetrain at all.

I think *that* is going to be the end game for performance cars. Electric motors at each wheel with an internal combustion engine powering a generator that feeds the batteries that feeds the motors at the corners.

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: gofast182

The Sport Hybrid version in the RLX is probably the most advanced application of an AWD system in any vehicle less than $100K. It truly is quite ingenious and the performance of that car belies its size/weight. Look for a similar system (only reversed with the individual electric motors on the front wheels) in the new NSX. Expect 600HP total out of that system.

Look for a lightened version of the mechanical system with improved logic in the new V6 TLX coming out this summer. The main disadvantage of the current system is it's quite heavy. For comparison sake, the Subaru systems, like in the WRX and STi are much better for weight.


I was under the impression that the NSX was going to be a hybrid/AWD mix. As in, the front wheels would be driven by electric motors and not connected to the mechanical drivetrain at all.

I think *that* is going to be the end game for performance cars. Electric motors at each wheel with an internal combustion engine powering a generator that feeds the batteries that feeds the motors at the corners.

That is correct. To be clear, the Sport Hybrid AWD RLX employs a similar configuration (no mechanical connection front-to-rear) only it's reversed and with a transverse engine. NSX will have a longitudinal twin turbo 90 degree V6, an electric motor just off the flywheel before the DCT (because of this it won't need a starter motor either), and an individual hub motor on each front wheel. Aside from not needing a mechanical connection front-to-rear the hub motors can produce negative torque (on the inside wheel) to even further enhance cornering while at the same time regenerating power for the system.
Also correct that this appears to be the end-game for performance cars. Acura has been developing this for some time but you can see it was either developed a little faster or begun a little sooner by McLaren, Porsche, etc. and is showing up on their performance cars.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Yes, while your grandmother did manage to get out of her apartment complex to get snow ... I did watch her slide down Brighton Ave in Syracuse last month.

AWD helps you get moving. I will give you that. But it does not help you stop. There are people that think AWD with bald tires is safer than anything with snow tires.

We don't need to get into that argument. I believe 100% in snow tires and believe that, from a safety stand point, they are much safer than AWD.


First of all, you got the gender wrong (leading me to believe you're trolling and not reading), second my grandfather doesn't live in Syracuse so you got that wrong too.

Again, what does any of this have to do with the fact that not everyone has the space to store, or ability to change an entire set of tires?

You can believe in the safety of snow tires as hard as you want, but that doesn't change the fundamental fact that not everyone can have them equipped the very second the first snowflake touches the ground.

Are you reading anything I'm saying? You're responding to things that haven't been said.


I missed one fact, sorry. I am reading everything you are saying.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that sheep automatically believe their Subaru/Jeep/AWD is invincible in the snow with all season tires.

I am basing this off of FACT. I have driven MANY vehicles in the snow. And that is my point - you are claiming your grandFATHER (sorry) is SAFER in his Subaru than I am in my Focus.

The FACT remains that , FWD with snow tires is safer than AWD vehicles on all seasons.

I am not trolling. I see a lot of sheep that truely believe AWD is the end-all-be-all to driving in the snow. I then watch them bounce off of guard rails or slide into things when they feel they can exceed the safe speed limit. AWD will lull you into a false sense of security in the snow.

Fact: I live on a hill. On snowy night, I'll sit in my parking lot, in either one of my vehicles. When the snow gets packed down, all season tires with hard rubber compounds and minimal siping just can NOT grip. I have seen many-a-Subaru and RAV4s , NEW, not be able to make it up my hill or down without sliding and bouncing into things.

IF equipped with All Season, will AWD get you moving quicker than FWD / RWD with All Season tires? YES

Will AWD with hard, non-siped all seasons stop better than a 2WD vehicle with snow tires? Absolutely not.

Will AWD with hard, non-siped, not-agressive all seasons handle slush better than a 2WD vehicle with agressive snow tires? Absolutely not.

IF Equipped with Snow tires - there is NOTHING better than AWD. Period. Part time 4x4 gets squirlley when you try to turn and apply power.

However, the ONLY thing an AWD car equipped with snow tires *may* be able to do is accelerate quicker than my FWD with snow tires. As far as stopping on a steep hill with hard packed snow and ice (one of which I happen to live on) or hitting slush at speed - you can not overcome the laws of physics.

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
I missed one fact, sorry. I am reading everything you are saying.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that sheep automatically believe their Subaru/Jeep/AWD is invincible in the snow with all season tires.

I am basing this off of FACT. I have driven MANY vehicles in the snow. And that is my point - you are claiming your grandFATHER (sorry) is SAFER in his Subaru than I am in my Focus.

The FACT remains that , FWD with snow tires is safer than AWD vehicles on all seasons.

I am not trolling. I see a lot of sheep that truely believe AWD is the end-all-be-all to driving in the snow.

Fact: I live on a hill. On snowy night, I'll sit in my parking lot, in either one of my vehicles. When the snow gets packed down, all season tires with hard rubber compounds and minimal siping just can NOT grip. I have seen many-a-Subaru and RAV4s , NEW, not be able to make it up my hill or down without sliding and bouncing into things.

IF equipped with All Season, will AWD get you moving quicker than FWD / RWD with All Season tires? YES

IF Equipped with Snow tires - there is NOTHING better than AWD. Period. Part time 4x4 gets squirlley when you try to turn and apply power.

However, the ONLY thing an AWD car equipped with snow tires *may* be able to do is accelerate quicker than my FWD with snow tires. As far as stopping on a steep hill with hard packed snow and ice (one of which I happen to live on) or hitting slush at speed - you can not overcome the laws of physics.



At what point did I say anything about snow tires not being better than all season tires in the snow?

 

[surfstar]

AWD is nice when you live in SoCal and only get snow on weekend ski trips. Snow tires aren't really a thing here.

I recently did a snowboarding trip to UT and WY and never used my chains on the Vue, despite some snowy roads that likely would have chain control in CA. Drove slow and steady and didn't have any problems. FWD 5spd manual.

I would like a 2014 Forester, though. Maybe in a few years I can pick one up used or they're be something newer/better...

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
I wish Honda/Acura would put their SH-AWD system in a performance focused vehicle. Maybe something that doesn't weigh nearly two tons.


half of that two tons is the weight of the SH-AWD system itself

 

[glock19]

Originally Posted By: Miller88

IF Equipped with Snow tires - there is NOTHING better than AWD. Period.


Finally.

 

[rjundi]

I am guessing this one has all-seasons but not sure:



I am not a fan of the modern Subaru except WRX. I will state I have done something similar pulling a slightly stuck BMW 5 series with our 2005 Legacy GT.

 

[rjundi]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: Mykl
I wish Honda/Acura would put their SH-AWD system in a performance focused vehicle. Maybe something that doesn't weigh nearly two tons.


half of that two tons is the weight of the SH-AWD system itself

200ish lbs, 2014 MDX is 4270 SH AWD and 4025 FWD. I though the system was a fuel pig in my 2007 MDX but Acura squeeked 20city/28highway with FWD and 18/27 with SH AWD. Not too shabby for a 275HP SUV with ~6.5sec 0-60 time.

 

[LoneRanger]

AWESOME, I love it! A Subaru on factory all season tires pulls a UPS Truck out ! ! ! So much for all the harping a few posts back about Subaru's being worthless on all seasons ! ! Video evidence to the contrary, and a HYBRID one yet. Wow. I especially relish the last rescue, he pulls a Toyota FJ Cruiser that appears to be wearing all terrain tires. BUT, I have to guess that the FJ was probably driven by some soccer mom who didn't know how to put it into 4WD, because FJ's are the real deal.......

Waiting for the Subaru haters to try and debunk this vid.

Originally Posted By: rjundi
I am guessing this one has all-seasons but not sure:



I am not a fan of the modern Subaru except WRX. I will state I have done something similar pulling a slightly stuck BMW 5 series with our 2005 Legacy GT.

 

[gofast182]

It is a cool vid. and the off-the-line torque of the hybrid may have helped. I was very surprised about the FJ, though. No reason for that to have happened with such a serious piece of hardware. Now, having said it's a cool video, I hate to let the air out of the balloon but there's no reason a new Mazda CX-5, for example, couldn't have also provided the difference in traction the truck was lacking.

 

[D189379]

I love a good debate over something that, worst case, will be used to drive out of a 60ft snowy driveway.

I NEED HYPER TORQUE VECTORING DUAL SYMMETRICAL AWD SO I CAN TAILGATE MY NEIGHBOR TO THE FREEWAY IN 1" OF PACKED SNOW!!!

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: D189379
I love a good debate over something that, worst case, will be used to drive out of a 60ft snowy driveway.

I NEED HYPER TORQUE VECTORING DUAL SYMMETRICAL AWD SO I CAN TAILGATE MY NEIGHBOR TO THE FREEWAY IN 1" OF PACKED SNOW!!!


Personally, I think driving a Subaru in the snow is fun. I would buy one for that reason alone. If I suddenly found myself far enough north where this was an actual consideration I wouldn't sell any of my cars to get an AWD vehicle, but I'd still want one.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: D189379
I love a good debate over something that, worst case, will be used to drive out of a 60ft snowy driveway.

I NEED HYPER TORQUE VECTORING DUAL SYMMETRICAL AWD SO I CAN TAILGATE MY NEIGHBOR TO THE FREEWAY IN 1" OF PACKED SNOW!!!

It's really ironic how close this is to people's actual stated reasoning.

Not in this thread, just in the general public.

Yes, all else equal, AWD provides a HUGE advantage in straight-line traction. No ifs, ands, or buts. Then again, if we want to talk snow towing, my friend once used his RWD BMW M3 with winter tires to tow his dad's AWD BMW 330xi with all-season tires. And of course, any guesses as to which of those cars was safer under braking or cornering in the snow? It wasn't the AWD one.

The question is not whether AWD provides an advantage. It does. Period. The questions are what that advantage is and how much it is worth. 99.9% of people really do get those questions wrong, often to their own detriment.

Even among the people in this thread who are at each other's throats, I don't think there's actually any real disagreement on those points. We all agree that AWD can get you moving where 2WD would leave you stuck. We all agree that AWD does less to help you steer and nothing to help you stop. We all agree that driving with winter tires is preferable no matter what drivetrain type you have. With that knowledge, if AWD tickles you, or if you absolutely cannot afford the slightest possibility of being snowed in for however many days out of the year, go for it. As long as we're not overselling AWD, there's no reason for animosity.

 

[Mykl]

I would argue that the engine braking effect increases vehicle stability during deceleration in an AWD car.

No, that is not the same as saying that it helps you stop *faster* because that is determined by how much grip your rubber has with the road surface.

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: D189379
I love a good debate over something that, worst case, will be used to drive out of a 60ft snowy driveway.

I NEED HYPER TORQUE VECTORING DUAL SYMMETRICAL AWD SO I CAN TAILGATE MY NEIGHBOR TO THE FREEWAY IN 1" OF PACKED SNOW!!!

It's really ironic how close this is to people's actual stated reasoning.

Not in this thread, just in the general public.

Yes, all else equal, AWD provides a HUGE advantage in straight-line traction. No ifs, ands, or buts. Then again, if we want to talk snow towing, my friend once used his RWD BMW M3 with winter tires to tow his dad's AWD BMW 330xi with all-season tires. And of course, any guesses as to which of those cars was safer under braking or cornering in the snow? It wasn't the AWD one.

The question is not whether AWD provides an advantage. It does. Period. The questions are what that advantage is and how much it is worth. 99.9% of people really do get those questions wrong, often to their own detriment.

Even among the people in this thread who are at each other's throats, I don't think there's actually any real disagreement on those points. We all agree that AWD can get you moving where 2WD would leave you stuck. We all agree that AWD does less to help you steer and nothing to help you stop. We all agree that driving with winter tires is preferable no matter what drivetrain type you have. With that knowledge, if AWD tickles you, or if you absolutely cannot afford the slightest possibility of being snowed in for however many days out of the year, go for it. As long as we're not overselling AWD, there's no reason for animosity.

d00df00d, I agree. My responses stemmed from the fact the article in the OP was making a declarative statement devoid of fact. Fact is, there are other more advanced systems already out there. I'll concede that if Subaru can offer theirs at a good price point it may be a sales leader among that type of system, but, that's not what the article was talking about.

I happen to think Subarus are perfectly decent cars with a very good AWD system but I have to laugh when their promoters, essentially, insist they're invincible. Part of this may be because Subaru does a phenomenal job of both direct and indirect marketing of it. There are plenty of other cars with great systems **not saying they're necessarily better** that have the **potential** to be every bit as effective.

BTW, my wife drives the MDX most of the time and I make it around OK in the snow with FWD and all-seasons (not that I'll be pulling anyone out of the snow with it...

)

 

[Mykl]

I don't think that anybody actually believes that Subarus are invincible. The only people who seem to think that are those who like to attack drivers who prefer Subarus.

 

[rjundi]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
. BUT, I have to guess that the FJ was probably driven by some soccer mom who didn't know how to put it into 4WD, because FJ's are the real deal.......



Just like the morons at Jeep devaluing the brand on their 4x4's in the past FJ was available in 2wd also......

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
I don't think that anybody actually believes that Subarus are invincible. The only people who seem to think that are those who like to attack drivers who prefer Subarus.

I don't think anyone literally thinks that which is why I used the word essentially before the statement. But there's an awful lot of, "Bam! Look at this internet video where it does XYZ, nothing else is that good!" Or at least that's the way it comes across to someone who respects the brand but isn't married to it. I'll be the first to admit I have my own biases but at the same time I attempt to be factual and fair, conceding points when it's warranted.

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: gofast182

I don't think anyone literally thinks that which is why I used the word essentially before the statement. But there's an awful lot of, "Bam! Look at this internet video where it does XYZ, nothing else is that good!" Or at least that's the way it comes across to someone who respects the brand but isn't married to it. I'll be the first to admit I have my own biases but at the same time I attempt to be factual and fair, conceding points when it's warranted.


Sure, but there's always the opposite as well... pictures of wrecked Subarus and eye-witness stories of grandma doing uncontrolled vehicular acrobatics in the snow.

Your biases towards Honda/Acura are likely warranted as long as you differentiate between SH-AWD and the marginally effective (IMO) FWD based clutch actuated AWD you see in Honda vehicles like the CR-V.

The problem with SH-AWD is not so much technical as it is that Acura fancies itself as a luxury brand, and their vehicles are priced accordingly. You can get a Forester for $22k, the closest SH-AWD equipped SUV in Honda/Acura's lineup is the RDX, which can be had for a tick under $36k. I'm sure the RDX is a fantastic vehicle and all things considered a better drive than a Forester.

Maybe it's worth taking that RDX for a test drive if you intend to get crazy with the options sheet on that Subaru Forester/Outback or the RDX is pushing aggressive incentives.

But like you said, the Subaru is still a solid choice, and if value is more of a concern than overall refinement it's probably the right choice if all you need is safe, basic transportation at a non-luxury price.