Ford guys, where do you see this heading?

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Mustang2008Z
Please update the History Channel with your information. I am sure they would appreciate correcting their information. I already knew that there was a parting of ways between Henry Ford and the investors of the second automobile venture which would become Cadillac.


This was just in the paper a couple of weeks ago.

Quote:
The history of the Ford Motor Company has rarely been told accurately. The moments when facts trump myth are rare; and then immediately, with the sweep of an indifferent hand, the wave of historical misinformation wipes out the truth, reinstating and protecting the legend. Bottom line, "what everybody knows" about Ford is hardly ever all true.
Ed Wallace


Read more:

 

[LS2JSTS]

Couldn't agree more Spazdog...and what is most maddening to me at least. Is that Henry Fords own book is as guilty as many of the others of providing false, or rather lazily compiled information. His book, "My Life and Work" as well as Sorensens, "My Forty Years with Ford" are both riddled with inaccuracies. Some self serving and others self deprecating. And these two, if anybody was ever gonna "get it right", you would expect it from them. But you would be disappointed.

The best example, one I always call out on Sorensen is his rendition of the moving assembly line and the history of who, what and where was involved. In his version, many of the intermediate steps and people involved at Piquette are just wiped out of the equation. My grandfather was there, I've heard the stores about it and Sorensen over and over again...everyone has their own version of reality I guess.

 

[01rangerxl]

Ford has cycles of good and bad car lineups, with consistently good trucks to support the company and keep it afloat. The F-Series has been the flagship vehicle in the US since at least the mid 1990s, if not earlier.

The Taurus and Fusion are pretty good cars, but Ford needs to keep working on them. The Taurus won't cut it as a Crown Vic replacement. When people think of a Taurus, they think of a reasonably priced midsize car, which isn't really what it is anymore. The Fusion competes better with the former Taurus competitors, and there's nothing yet that really takes the place of the Crown Vic. I think a RWD flagship car would be a worthwhile investment for them, and let the Taurus be what people expect it to be.

I think they are putting a few too many eggs in the crossover/blob basket, and I hate that the Explorer is now a victim. How many shapeless minivan/car things with AWD are really needed? I think you have the market cornered on blobs, Ford, time to move on to better vehicles than that. Unfortunately [censored] like this is probably easy to make and easy to market. I like Toyota's approach with SUVs better...the Land Cruiser and 4Runner remain tough, capable 4x4s. I wish Ford had done the same with the Explorer.

The trucks have always been Ford's fallback product, and they remain pretty good. With the Ranger going away, the F-150 is about the only Ford I would consider buying. It's still a solid truck, and Ford hasn't deviated from their highly successful formula there. I just wish they saw the value of keeping the Ranger around. It outsold the Camry just a decade ago, but you have to update a vehicle more often than that to keep it successful. No **** the Ranger's sales have been dropping, most of the sheetmetal is from 1993.

Ford can build really great vehicles and even make some really smart decisions when they are under the gun and a lot is at stake, but when they get complacent, cocky, and comfortable they get stupid.

As for Lincoln, Ford really needs to treat that division as it's own company and let it build it's own cars. Lincolns used to be very distinct, but now they are just a marketing department.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: qdeezie
They need to bring back the Lincoln Mark Coupes. I love those rides. They had a good looking Mark IX prototype some years ago.



YES! Those were great cars. I also loved the Lincoln LSC with the 5.0L. But, sadly the Lincolns today are pitiful. You can tell right off that they are dressed up Fords and the new designs are ugly in my opinion with those huge grills. Cadillac has it all over Lincoln right now in looks, engine power, and the sales prove it. Cadillac sales rose 23% in the first 5 months of 2011 and Lincoln dropped 8% (fact from Car & Driver page 18 of the Sept 2011 issue).

I hope they turn Lincoln around, we need Cadillac and Lincoln to be strong together for America.

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: qdeezie
They need to bring back the Lincoln Mark Coupes. I love those rides. They had a good looking Mark IX prototype some years ago.



YES! Those were great cars. I also loved the Lincoln LSC with the 5.0L. But, sadly the Lincolns today are pitiful. You can tell right off that they are dressed up Fords and the new designs are ugly in my opinion with those huge grills. Cadillac has it all over Lincoln right now in looks, engine power, and the sales prove it. Cadillac sales rose 23% in the first 5 months of 2011 and Lincoln dropped 8% (fact from Car & Driver page 18 of the Sept 2011 issue).

I hope they turn Lincoln around, we need Cadillac and Lincoln to be strong together for America.

I am not sure if a coupe is going to work... How many coupes have come and gone, versus how many coupe models have been produced year after year and continued to be big successes? The Mustang is the only one I can think of that had no interruption for many years.

 

[CROWNVIC4LIFE]

I agree with Falcon_LS as Ford positioning itself as a boutique manufacturer..I do not like the current line up of vehicles either.

I only see sprinkling of new Lincolns,Tauruses and Explorers down here..I think they priced themselves out of the ballpark with the Taurus and Explorer..I know of 2 people who wanted to trade in their 97 Explorers for a new one but the price stopped them dead in their in tracks..Now they are both looking for a late model Explorer..Both of these guys always bought new..The city of Miami who always bought the Taurus for the investigators are now buying the Impalas.

I think the Mark 8 and the Marauder should have stayed on or brought back..I knew a few guys that had them and loved them.

The Lincolns as they are right now are just plain ugly IMHO.

 

[urchin]

Lincoln's time has come and gone.

It is too late for the brand to recover. It must die ASAP.

Why Ford threw more millions at it now is beyond me.

Ford, stop throwing money away on a lost cause. Kill Lincoln now, so that the money can be reinvested in most important products.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: urchin
Lincoln's time has come and gone.

It is too late for the brand to recover. It must die ASAP.

Why Ford threw more millions at it now is beyond me.

Ford, stop throwing money away on a lost cause. Kill Lincoln now, so that the money can be reinvested in most important products.



1. That's what people said about Cadillac. Now look at Cadillac, they have the best products and sales are up 23% for the first 5 months of 2011. GM took the big risk in Cadillac and it worked.

2. Same for Buick - now look at how far Buick has come! The products are great and the medium age purchaser has fallen dramatically.

2. Ford needs a halo/luxury car line. They just need to tweak Lincoln a bit to make it better. They need to start with the awful stying and get away from the current rebadging that is so much that it is noticible to the consumer. Ford messed up when they bought all those European luxury brands and focused more on them then Lincoln. Now that they no longer owne the foriegn brans they can and need to focus on Lincoln. I think they got Ford going pretty good (the Taurus is nice)..now it's Lincoln's turn.

 

[kkreit01]

Originally Posted By: nepadriver
Originally Posted By: kkreit01
Originally Posted By: nepadriver
Agreed on new prices for a Taurus, which looks great, but for the Limited package you could buy a Lexus... Who are they kidding? Who in their right mind would spend $33k for a Taurus when you can get a IS or ES Lexus ? That's tough company they are playing with.


I would.


Based on Ford's sales figures, you are the minority. The Focus ,Fiesta and Fusion are selling like gangbusters, and should be, no mention of Taurus at all.

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=34834

In fact, go back thru 2011 month by month, nada for the Taurus:
http://www.blueovalnews.com/index.php?categoryid=22

Don't get me wrong, I had a loaded 2003 Taurus, got it for a song (about 25% off sticker), but other wise I wouldn't pay what they are asking. At best you can get the dealer down to $31,000 from a $35,000 car (maybe more), but that is still 2k away from a base IS ? Nope, not for me.


I didn't say I'd buy it before a Fusion, Focus, or Fiesta. I would never trade my car for a Taurus either -- unless it had S H O emblem on the trunk lid. However, I would buy a Taurus before a Lexus. That's just me. Around here, I see way more (new) Tauri (Tauruses) than Fiestas. I now see more '12 Foci than Fiestas.

Buy yeah -- back on topic -- Lincoln does need to do something. They do have big plans. There's long article in the new C&D.

I'm surprised there's such a large price difference for Explorers in the OP's country. Here, they start at $28K -- about what the previous gen did. However, you'll be hard pressed to find a base model. Most I've seen on the lot are all loaded into the $40Ks.

 

[Mustang2008Z]

My opinion, I would like to see Ford bring back the Mercury brand. I had a 1995 Mercury Cougar that I just fell in love with, it was fully equipped, and was very reliable up until it was involved in an accident that totalled it, thanks to my ex-wife. I miss that car. Don't miss the ex-wife......lol....I, also, enjoyed the Lincoln Mark automobiles. I would buy something like a Mark if it was still made today.

 

[urchin]

Caddy was much healthier to begin with at the time GM started to revive it. Lincoln has been near death for a very looooong time now I equate Lincoln to being on "life support". Caddy was never that bad.

There is no hope for Lincoln. Time to put it out of its misery.

 

[LS2JSTS]

There is plenty of hope for Lincoln.

And truth be told Ford has all the "bits", platform and engine design wise to put together a few RWD cars that could form the basis of a new Lincoln in very short order.

Ford cannot and will not abandon the Luxury market entirely. I look for some big things/changes from Lincoln over the next few years.

 

[2oldtommy]

Think CAFE 54 MPG my friends. The whole universe of car design is to be something you and I can not at this moment conceive of. There will be no more cars like the Crown Vic---EVER-- again. Can you see Smart and maybe Fiat 500 as MAINSTREAM cars of the future? The power pak engines may be a turbo 3 cyl. 1L. I hate to burst the bubble of those who long for replacements for the cars we have grown up with and love, but THE FUTURE IS 54 MPG CAFE!! Has reality set in yet?? Think about it. FWIW-- Oldtommy

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: urchin
Caddy was much healthier to begin with at the time GM started to revive it. Lincoln has been near death for a very looooong time now I equate Lincoln to being on "life support". Caddy was never that bad.

There is no hope for Lincoln. Time to put it out of its misery.


I disagree.
Cadillac had a lot of problems for a long time. The 368 V8-6-4 and it's electronic problems. The HT4100 traded the 368 V8-6-4's mechanical reliability for mechanical failures and kept many of the electrical problems. The 4.5 improved some of the HT4100's mechanical problems but not enough of them. The 4.9 was better but too little too late.

The RWD Fleetwood Brougham was retired in '96. If you wanted a RWD Cadillac sedan, you could get a Catera which was in itself, a piece of [junk]. Otherwise, if you were looking for a RWD V8 American luxury sedan you skipped over the Cadillac dealer and went straight to Lincoln for a Town Car.

Lincoln also had a great deal of success initially with the Jaguar derived LS. I still think the LS was a good car. I wish they had stuck with it. Maybe updated it along the way.

That would have been the way to go. That and find a way to save the Town Car.

Admittedly, the current Lincoln lineup is a mess. Most people would rather have a top of the line Mazda6 or Fusion than the MKZ sibling. The Taurus is better looking than the MKS and I don't even know where to begin with the MKT. The Navigator still sells okay but is it really that much better than a premium Expedition?

 

[needsducktape]

I liked the conservative dressed up LS and Navagator of the early 2000s -Now I look at the MK__ (WHATEVER) and I think its over styled and trying too hard.

The New Taurus hands down is a better looking car.

I think the CTS Caddy coupe wagon and sedan stand out as some of the best American design in years. I do not know if they are reliable or "3 series" beating but I know they catch my eye every time I see one.

 

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Lincoln also had a great deal of success initially with the Jaguar derived LS. I still think the LS was a good car. I wish they had stuck with it. Maybe updated it along the way.


I have to disagree with this. I recommend the LS to no-one. Even people I don't like.

Too many problems with those cars that should not be problems on a car. Need a lower ball joint? Well just buy a whole upright. Need a rear wheel bearing? Just buy a whole rear upright. No thank you. Plus it is not uncommon to have one with the absolutely horrid 3.9L V8 come in for 8 plugs and 8 coils with valve cover gaskets and coil covers. Replace a window regulator every couple years.

Don't get me wrong, they look good, and drive nice. But they are not reliable at all.

 

[urchin]

Originally Posted By: 2oldtommy
Think CAFE 54 MPG my friends. The whole universe of car design is to be something you and I can not at this moment conceive of. There will be no more cars like the Crown Vic---EVER-- again. Can you see Smart and maybe Fiat 500 as MAINSTREAM cars of the future? The power pak engines may be a turbo 3 cyl. 1L. I hate to burst the bubble of those who long for replacements for the cars we have grown up with and love, but THE FUTURE IS 54 MPG CAFE!! Has reality set in yet?? Think about it. FWIW-- Oldtommy


Absolutely correct.

However, this is the kind of truth that gets one banned off of any major car discussion forums.

Usually every time I posted this type of reality check it got me banned or greatly reduced posting ability.

I don't mind a future with neat little subcompacts. Like Fiesta, 500, Fit, Mazda 2 ect...as long as they are fun to drive, affordable, cheap to maintain, and gas misers I'm good!

 

[PF52]

Originally Posted By: JOD
You know what car I NEVER see, as in I've probably seen fewer than 10 of them? The new Ford Taurus. And I have to think this is a pretty big part of the market? Are they selling any of these??


I agree 100%, and I've mentioned it before here on the forum. The new Taurus is a no-show here in the Chicago area. A shame, too, considering they used to be everywhere. Every fourth car on the street, it seemed. The mighty has fallen.

I do see a LOT of Fusions however. I wonder if Ford has considered moving Taurus production to Mexico, and bringing Fusion production here to the US? It would put an end to the whole "my Camry is more American than your domestic car" discussion that is so prevalent on the internets these days. Ford would hit a home run if they could counter with a huge selling Fusion that is made here with high domestic content.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: css9450

I do see a LOT of Fusions however. I wonder if Ford has considered moving Taurus production to Mexico, and bringing Fusion production here to the US? It would put an end to the whole "my Camry is more American than your domestic car" discussion that is so prevalent on the internets these days. Ford would hit a home run if they could counter with a huge selling Fusion that is made here with high domestic content.

That's a possibility with Mazda ceasing production at AutoAlliance in Michigan.
The tooling is already in place to make a Mazda G-platform derived car (which the Fusion is). It will require some tweaks of course but not as many as starting up production from scratch.

 

[saberz]

I honestly think(JMO) that how Ford is handling Lincoln now is much reminiscent of how GM handled Caddilac in the 90's early 2000's. Rebadge, Uninspiring aging designs and targeting a demographic that rarely if ever spends(elderly/retired). When I think of a Cadillac from the 90's or a Lincoln from the early to mid 2000's I picture an old retired guy going out to play Golf. Now look at the new Cadillac, literally 2-3 years makes a big world of difference. the biggest change stemmed from the introduction of the CTS and CTS-V.

Cadillac is now free to really push the limit in terms of design, performance and gadgets. Most gadgetry designed by the Cadillac devision gets trickled down over the years to other models/cars/divisions when it makes sense(money).

I think if Ford would give Lincoln the pep talk and have teams like the guys who designed cars like the Fusion/Taurus/Fiesta/Focus(interiors are nice looking, modern etc) they could really turn around. The Lincoln LS's were very nice cars(aesthetically) but very very prone to issues. Before then the bigger older Lincolns really looked like they belonged to the retired old people(much like how Cadillacs were depicted). Cadillac is now young and hip and really hits home with a wide range of demographics. They need to do it like Cadillac/GM did.

I predict that come the next refresh of Lincoln vehicles they will get it and come out with some inspiring designs.